Cedar Point's Next Coaster

Visionist said:

What's the latest on the Intamin/CF makeup rumours?

In the event CF was somehow lured into another Intamin project, I suspect CF would be more than a little reluctant to experiment with some new, untested product or implementation from a company that can't even manage to competently engineer a flume ride.

And if you look through Intamin's portfolio, I'm not sure what's left once you remove both untested/unreliable products and products that CP already has some version of. I guess the only thing left would be wooden prefab, but why on Earth would CF go with Intamin, given their success with GCI?

^Besides El Toro being one of the best wooden coasters out there, unless the ride op was making stuff up, El Toro has not needed any track modifications done to it in the first 11 years it's been operating.

El Toro also cost over $30 million (adjusted for inflation). Compare that with the $15 million spent on Mystic Timbers, and it's hard to argue against the value. It would require an insane amount of maintenance to make MT a less appealing investment than ET.

^If you insist on costs as your argument, wouldn't CP have saved money by scrapping MS and building a completely steel version of Steel Vengeance and wouldn't they have been able to do all of that in much less time?

Has anybody here ridden El Toro recently? Interesting to know how well it's holding up. I was supposed to go last year but had to cancel. I'm not sure Intamin even offer prefabs anymore, since they haven't made one for a number of years? I presume they cover R&D & the laser work is contracted out to an appropriate facility.

Was the STR accident due to a design fault? I can see how that would poison the good will well, especially with TTD's constant downtime. CF lost good money on STR. They could have built a family coaster for the same and which would still be lucrative. MF seems relatively reliable, Maverick less so.

B&M is increasingly neutering its rides. The GP gobble them up so that's what counts. The cryptic signals about Intamin's future relationship with the chain could be hot air, and at this stage probably are. Apart from a possible impulse for CGA (unless WT is sent there) it's looking unlikely the rumoured 2020 woodie would be a prefab, even though ironically prefabs have a golden reputation.

B&M could deliver another "ten records" breaker for a price. It's the safest bet, but not the most exciting.

I rode it for 2 days in a row in 2016 and 2 days in a row last summer. On those 4 days I went, I rode it non-stop for the last hour of each night. The 2nd night, last year, I went back to the park just to ride El Toro. This ride is amazing. The smoothness of it is unreal. The turns are so perfectly banked you'd swear you were on a really good steel coaster. Great Adventure has an excellent collection of coasters, but this, by far, is the best coaster they have.

What is the point of building a wood coaster if it rides like a really good steel coaster? The GCI coasters feel like traditional wooden coasters, which they are, so it makes a lot more sense to build one of those if the park wants a wood coaster.

^ What's the point of building a steel coaster on a wooden structure? Imagine how much better Steel Vengeance could have been if they didn't have the limitations of a wooden structure. Maybe even heavier 36 passenger trains?

Good point on wooden coasters which ride like steel. "Smooth" is the key word, something most riders can't seem to get enough of. A GCI may be smooth today, but without exhaustive maintenance, may be rough in ten years, and the crowds will start to avoid it. Some wood coasters can't be saved, like MS or SOB.

Short term vs long term investment.

Zoug68 said:

^If you insist on costs as your argument, wouldn't CP have saved money by scrapping MS and building a completely steel version of Steel Vengeance and wouldn't they have been able to do all of that in much less time?

Cost is only one consideration among many. CP didn't want a steel coaster. They wanted an RMC conversion of their wood coaster.

And they wanted to work with a company that doesn't treat their customers terribly.

Plus, RMC conversions save money compared to ground-up construction. Not much, but some.

Visionist said:

A GCI may be smooth today, but without exhaustive maintenance, may be rough in ten years, and the crowds will start to avoid it.

...

Short term vs long term investment.

Right, and considering no one has built an Intamin prefab in over a decade, I'm guessing it's still cheaper to build a GCI and maintain it than it is to spend twice that with less maintenance. If their prefab were that good, others would have been built, period. Instead, parks are going with GCI and other traditional wood coasters.

While there are other great builders of wooden coasters, I am simply arguing as to why they might build an Intamin pre-fab. El Toro has been in the top 4 wooden coasters for 9 years in a row and took the number 1 position back again last year. That's pretty incredible considering the wooden coasters that have been built since. To say CP won't build one is about as meaningless as CP will NEVER convert MS. And how many people were saying that on this site since Texas Giant was converted.

Do we have the costs of SV's conversion yet? We'll probably know by the end of summer (there's a depressing three words). They seemed to have no problem reusing parts of MS's structure: Check out the different colour supports.

I don't think they'll say what the cost of the conversion was...I don't think they said what Rougarou or Valravn cost, either.

Zoug68 said:

To say CP won't build one is about as meaningless as CP will NEVER convert MS. And how many people were saying that on this site since Texas Giant was converted.

Certainly not me, because that would have been an impotent argument.

That is not the case with Intamin and their history with CF (and elsewhere). Like I said, if Intamin prefabs were all that, there would be more of them being built. There have been 15 GCIs built since the last Intamin prefab. That tells you all you need to know, in my opinion.

Visionist said:

Do we have the costs of SV's conversion yet?

No, but we have Fred Grubb's interview at the premier of TT, where he noted that while the construction labor is basically equivalent, reusing existing structure saves money (obviously).

I can't shake off the feeling that for the 150th, they're out to break records again. GCI coasters aren't about chasing records.

I'm surprised we don't know Valravn's cost. We definitely know they've been spending a lot since GK. Makes ya feel bad for places like Valleyfair (just kidding). Their 50th is coming up after KI's.

A search online reveals the obvious; there's been no official hint that the next CP ride is a wooden coaster. It's all guesstimation and predictions. KI is the "wooden coaster park" in the chain and with its 50th looming there might be little incentive for CF to compete with itself by building a woodie at their Lake Erie park. I'm betting now that the 2020 coaster (if a coaster is built) will be another B&M, maybe a flyer but not necessarily.

I still wanna see a Towering Timbers though.

Visionist said:

I can't shake off the feeling that for the 150th, they're out to break records again.

Considering you un-ironically think a "wooden polercoaster" is not only feasible, but a good idea, I advise against trusting your "feelings".

KI is the "wooden coaster park" in the chain and with its 50th looming there might be little incentive for CF to compete with itself by building a woodie at their Lake Erie park.

*sigh*

They're only in competition in the same way that two Targets are in competition. That is to say, they're not.

And someone should let KI know that they're the "wooden coaster park" before they continue moving forward with their rumored B&M giga. We must stop them before it's too late!

I once heard that Cedar Fair isn't releasing the costs for new coasters nowadays. Kind of a bummer since it's always intriguing to know, but as long as they manage their money and keep pumping out great rides, let's keep riding.

I see Cedar Point going with GCI, it's just the safe bet. The 5 GCI's installed (counting Ghostrider) at CF parks are generally considered the best or 2nd best ride in each park. I love Mystic, also Lightning Racer and Prowler. But I must say that Thunderhead at Dollywood is very rough now, and Wildcat at Hershey is nearly unbearable. I haven't ridden any other GCIs yet. They've also had a couple rides close after relatively short lifespans. (Roar at SFDK, Gwazi at BGT)

El Toro, on the other hand, may be crazy expensive, but it's the most insane non-launched ride I've ever been on. It is more intense than Skyrush and I305 in my opinion, you feel totally out of control and I still can't believe that Six Flags never installed any others in some of their top tier parks. The build cost is enormous, maybe the upkeep costs are as well, that has to be a reason. El Toro is, as a coaster experience, perfect.