What are they thinking ?!

Well the only reason I say that is because I have a chance to go to California in a month. The travel isn't for sure yet, but I have yet to go out there. Rest assured, no in-park spending, though. I look at it as I've already used its $150 value at Cedar Point during Halloweekends, and opening weekend at Kings Island for 2008, and if I can get free rides on new coasters I have yet to ride, might as well take advantage of it.

Oh, and just thought I'd let who know, since I know you've been in Sandusky for a while, that the new season for Cedar Fair doesn't start until the 2008 season passes expire. ;)

^Are you directing that last comment about season passes to me? Because if so, I don't get it. What does that have to do with me?

It was supposed to be a joke, but I usually fail at humor, as you can tell. So yeah...just ignore it.

Now back to the argument. :)

Ok got ya. Maybe it was me, I was a little confused. I haven't had a season pass since 2000.

MeanStreak'07 said:

You would "bitch and moan" too if you worked with that company several seasons

I have worked for Cedar Fair for several seasons, 8 to be exact. Then I realized that I could make more somewhere else. So I looked around and found a park that is willing to pay almost twice the amount that I made at Cedar Point. Problem solved!

And Megan, did you even read everything Jeff wrote or just what I quoted from him?

GAM man 68 said:
On the topic of whether cp is trying to screw employees over,I feel that this should be a disscusion of maybe why cp is able to do this, not to immediatly call them out for being "illegal" whether they may or not be. We should try and pull all the facts together, not be yelling and screaming at each other over who knows what an honest job is.

on the topic of cp employees, though I have many things to say about my job, I feel this is not the proper forum to discuss it. I love working at cp for a multitude of reasons, but I also understand the incredibly tough decision it can be on whether to come back or not. I implore everyone to look at what would be the best option for themselves, since everyone has different situations/values, and to carry through with it.

and finally, on the topic working at cp being a "brainless job", being a farm boy and having actually done manual labor before, it can be laughable what some people consider hard work, but that doesn't mean that being a ride op, or a games employee or a sweep doesn't take a lot of dedication and the occasional hard work it requires to make it the Cedar Point we all know and love. And for those of us who take pride in what we do, it can be offending when someone calls that, "brainless".

Trying to calm things down earlier didnt seem to work. I just gave my opinion..it wasnt meant to make anyone mad or cause more chaos. GAM, I loved your post just now and I feel the same way. When I read in an earlier post that our job was being known as "brainless"..kinda made me upset. Because, yeah..we all have different jobs throughout the park that require different skills. No job is really ever "brainless". Im glad to see that my sarcasm stuck out in my first post, although, it was taken the wrong way by some people. People that know me throughout the park, know my love for that park and what I do. It may be a "brainless" job to some, but to others; its something we enjoy doing.

99er said:

MeanStreak'07 said:

You would "bitch and moan" too if you worked with that company several seasons

I have worked for Cedar Fair for several seasons, 8 to be exact. Then I realized that I could make more somewhere else. So I looked around and found a park that is willing to pay almost twice the amount that I made at Cedar Point. Problem solved!

And Megan, did you even read everything Jeff wrote or just what I quoted from him?

Yes, I read everything he wrote. Some I agreed with, and some I thought should have been avoided to keep an arguement down.

Also, I guess my reason for not leaving that park yet is because my love for it. Trust me, I have wanted to quit working there several times. But, something just stops me because in the back of my mind, I think that something will someday change. Although, I know thats never going to happen.

I have a very good friend of mine that wrote an article I think you all should read. Very interesting.

http://blogged.rollercoasterpro.com/01-15-09.php

Just something I thought I would throw out there.

There is no need to read that, its what BlueStreak64 has already been saying. The author of that blog is BlueStreak64, which I assume you already knew. There is nothing there that anyone reading all of this thread didn't already know.

Its not about the money, its about feeling under appreciated. By paying less than MINIMUM wage, even if its legal, CP is telling its employees that they aren't important. Last summer, I did what was asked of me. I showed up more or less on time. I was safe, and I was nice to guests. Did I ever go above and beyond what I was supposed to? No. I got paid crappy wages if I was sitting around talking to my friends in our office or actually working the ride. So, why try?

Man 7 pages of bitching and moaning and only 1 person seems to even be right and that is John.

If you don't like it, work elsewhere or stfu. We start people off at a wage. If they don't like it, they don't have to take the job. We don't hold a gun to their heads, and we've had plenty of people pass on it once they found out what they'd start at.

I don't understand, still, why we even have a minimum wage.

lladnar said:
Its not about the money, its about feeling under appreciated. By paying less than MINIMUM wage, even if its legal, CP is telling its employees that they aren't important. Last summer, I did what was asked of me. I showed up more or less on time. I was safe, and I was nice to guests. Did I ever go above and beyond what I was supposed to? No. I got paid crappy wages if I was sitting around talking to my friends in our office or actually working the ride. So, why try?

I couldnt agree more with this post. Very nicely put! Totally what I was trying to say!

Another season, another conflagration over wages. Nice to see that some things don't change.

Seems to be a couple of issues at play here, and in trying to discuss them all at once we've been jumping all over each other.

1) Is the proposed (remember, not yet paid) wage rate legal?

No. I think that's been established fairly solidly. Whether or not you agree with the concept of the minimum wage is irrelevant. It is on the books and is law. The federal law, which enacts a wage increase in July, does in fact exempt amusement parks. The Ohio law, as has been more than adequately shown, contains no exemption for seasonals and/or amusement parks. In fact, it hasn't since late 2007/early 2008. Multiple calls to the Ohio Dept. of Commerce (includes Labor) have confirmed this, and also that the bonus is NOT applicable to reach the minimum wage. I can also confirm that they have received multiple calls and emails over the past two days regarding this issue, and that an "investigation" (their words, not mine) has been initiated, whatever that means or entails.

Granted, I tend to agree that, until the park actually attempts to pay its workers at the stated rate, they probably haven't yet committed an illegal act. My guess? The company (not the park, wages are set at a higher level) is well aware that their exemption has expired, but is fighting and/or appealing for its renewal. If they win, they haven't promised anyone a higher rate, and if they lose, I'm more than willing to bet that you'll see a posted increase before the first check is paid out. Whether or not the bonus will remain is anyone's guess. It's not like .35 an hour is doing anything at all to keep people at the park, anyway. By the time it rolled over to $1, I had maybe $350 in accrued bonus, or less than half of an average paycheck. If they get rid of the bonus to effect the raise, all it means is that those who quit early essentially get a raise while everyone else remains flat, which has been the case for the past two years, anyway. (Gotta love the logic there....)

Frankly, I don't see how the company has much of a shot. They are already exempted from paying overtime rates. That's fair, I suppose, given the seasonal nature of the business. But I gotta believe that the minimum wage exemption was intended more for small farms, etc. (remember, amusement parks in Ohio fall under the Department of Agriculture) and not billion dollar corporations.

2. Do CP employees (or anyone) deserve minimum wage and/or a raise?

I have my own views on the merits and faults of minimum wage laws (econ major). The government does, indeed, have the right to set a minimum wage, and there's more to it than simply an "infringement" of free market principles, because there are negative externalities to an extremely low wage, such as increased dependence on government support such as welfare, etc. I could go on, but I hope that's enough to illustrate my point.

I find the statement, made several pages ago, that seasonal workers don't need a living wage, just "beer money", to be ridiculously elitist and ignorant. Yes, a majority of the park's employees are college students, but a significant number are not. For example, several of my co-workers are teachers working a job for the summer while school is out. Everyone's situation is unique. Could some "do better"? Sure, maybe, possibly. I can attest, however, that job-hunting in the current economy is NOT a sure or easy thing. I've been doing it for the past few months (living off my own savings, thanks) and haven't had a ton of luck.

For my own part, I suppose I tacitly accept the fact that the pay will be low as a trade-off for what I consider to be an enjoyable work environment. That doesn't mean that I don't earnestly believe that the employees are underpaid for the work they put in under the conditions it is performed. Is it unskilled labor? For the most part, yes. No one is insisting that park workers get rich, but to suggest that they deserve below the minimum wage that is applied uniformly to other unskilled positions is, frankly, insulting and disappointing. Many employees do read this board, and to see some of the comments that have been made in this thread by "enthusiasts" of the park is one of the more disheartening aspects of this whole fiasco. I guess I expected more out of people who profess to be fans of the park. I'd suggest the fact that most of us who stick it out working for the park year after year love the place more than most of you can understand. If you find that corny or laughable, that's up to you.

There, I've said my piece, and I'll go back to my usual lurking and leave this thread alone unless anyone specifically solicits my opinion further. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see where this all goes.

It boils down to logic vs. emotion. OK, so you made a lot of friends and had the best time of your life, I get it. That's all fine and good, but you can't do that forever. At some point, you've got to move on, and that point usually comes when logic comes in and says "maybe I now have too many financial responsibilities to stay working for minimum wage at a seasonal job."

It happens, and it sucks, but it's part of getting old.

If there was no BUNAC program the wages would be higher. At least 1/3 of the staff (perhaps more by now) comes from overseas. At some point that program will be insufficient and Cedar Fair (and other low-wage paying companies for that matter) will be forced to make an adjustment.

Kinzel has NEVER valued the HUMAN resource...and he never will. My wife was with Cedar Point, full time, for 10 years (while the company itself was small) and Kinzel hardly knew her. Mind you...he saw her on a pretty regular basis.

He allowed the seasonal staff to go without a "rec" center for several seasons when the fix was relatively simple and much sought after by the most folks in upper management.

He seems fine with the housing conditions at Cedars and Gold dorms when any rationale person will walk in there and be stunned by what they see.

Can Cedar Point (HE) get away with this type of disgregard? Yes. Does it make it right? No.

Don't get me started on the way they string along seasonals year after year by the promise of a full time position that will never come. That, in my opinion, is taking advantage of somebody and it is deplorable.

I'm not concerned about all of this because I'm worried about the seasonal employee. I was a seasonal employee for many years and I agree that if you know what you are getting upfront then you have no one to blame but yourself.

I'm concerned as a unit holder because I firmly believe the salary and 'extras' for the seasonals directly impacts the quality of the staff you recruit. And, of course, the staff you recruit directly impacts the bottom line by being the face of your business.

If Kinzel feels his company is fine being represented by less than average then he can feel that way. But, as a unitholder I have the right to think he is a short sighted idiot.

Let me clarify something, I'm not agreeing with what they are paying. I think the employees do do a fantastic job, and should be paid a bit more. So if I've come across that way, I apologize.

HOWEVER, it is in the company's best interest (as it is any company's) to pay the minimum amount of wage that they can. That's how business works. If they are able to fill all the positions they need to at the current pay rate, what's the point of raising it? To complain about a wage, but then take it anyway just shows that you can be bought. At some point you have to say, no that's too low, either pay me X or I'll go elsewhere. They'll either accept or show you the door. Unfortunately, it is not this generation of workers that will benefit from it, but the seasonals in 2 or 3 years will reap great benefits from it.

Granted, the park should at least hit minimum wage, they have to....unless of course there is some legal action in the works to have an exemption put through the legislature before the season starts. We don't know.

Jugga...respectfully, I think you are developing a case of Kinzelitis. If I own a car wash I may want to pay my employees the least amount possible. But, let's be honest, the majority of my employees will be drying the cars with little interaction with my customers. And, of course, they aren't going to be handling money, they won't be responsible for the safety of my customers, they aren't cooking food, etc.

If I am trying to sell an experience...which is the case at Cedar Point...then I need to think it through a little more than that. I mean, that is what Walt Disney did. He could have built another "carnival" type park and people probably would have spent money on it. But, he built an experience (an experience that included a more upscale worker) and now the Disney empire reaches around the world.

I pay my employees more than $10 per hour. They are the same demographic that CP hires. But, I see my employees as an extension of me. I want them to treat my customers with the same level of courtesy and professionalism as I do. I want to avoid complaints. I want the customers to come back.

In nearly 8 years I can count on one hand the number of complaints I received as a result of my staff. Now, you can argue that the fact that I'm in the public sector makes it easier for me because I don't have to worry about profit. On the contrary, my budgets are being slashed right now. But, I will continue to fight for the wage (which is has a direct result on the level of service that we give) because it is the smart thing to do.

There are good seasonal employees at Cedar Point. Imagine if the entire staff was made up of clones of those good employees. Imagine what that would do to a guests' overall perception of their day. Imagine what that would do to a guests' perception of the value they received. Imagine what those guests would say to their neighbors when they got home.

See, the problem is, it is hard to quantify the Return on Investment you would get. Actually, it isn't hard for most people but it is hard for Dick. He looks at employees like he looks at electricty. He would rather not have to pay for it...but it is a necessity. So, he pays the bill on a monthly basis but doesn't give it much more thought than that.

Chief - I guess that's the part that I was thinking, but didn't put on paper (or silicone as the case may be). Any business wants to pay the least they can to provide the level of service that they desire.

Cedar Point isn't going to pay 15 bucks an hour if all they want is 7 dollar level of service.

Apparently they are happy with the service they are getting from employees at $7/hr. If (as a business owner) I am happy, why would I raise what I'm paying?

As you said before, Kinzel doesn't appreciate the staff in the trenches, so unless there is a massive turn-over of people and they are left short on workers, what reason would they have for re-evaluating?

Because if you want to make more then you have to spend more. Sure, $X/hour employees are generating $X per year revenue. But, if you are looking at ways to sustain (over the short term economic troubles), insulate yourselves from competing forms of entertainment, and grow in the long term then you need to consider spending $Z/hour so that you can be more picky about whom you hire.

We would all admit that there are plenty of (low paying) jobs to go around. And, we would all agree that there are capable people to perform those jobs. In the economy of the 70s and early 80s Cedar Point could literally pick out the employees they wanted from crowds of people who gathered at college campuses. Now, the shoe is on the proverbial other foot. The kids have their choice from crowds of employers who are trying to fill vacant positions.

So, how does Cedar Fair choose to set themselves apart from the rest of the competition? By advertising a wage that is below Federal allowable minimum.

That is comparable to the Geauga County Fair trying to attract visitors away from Cedar Point by saying, "we have less rides, less thrilling rides, and less entertainment than the folks in Sandusky!"

Sort of falls flat, doesn't it?

Chief Wahoo said:
Because if you want to make more then you have to spend more.

Agreed, but we're also talking about a guy who is happy because per-cap goes up year after year. Although I don't think he looks at it as "Per cap went up 3%, but we also raised our prices 6% over last year". I can almost guarantee if you cut prices by 20%, increased the quality by 5% you could see per-cap up by 30-40%. Rather than going by the more money out of fewer people, get more people spending less money. Is it better to have 5 people spending 20 bucks and 15 spending 0, or 20 people spending 5 bucks (and probably more)?

I think we're both driving at the same point from 2 different sides. There are ways the park can improve the employee experience, but they aren't going to until 1 of 2 things happen. 1 - DK's retirement, 2 - they are severely short-staffed and have to re-evaluate, at which point I think DK is also forced out.