Thoughts on CP while fresh from Disney

i have to agree with kevin on this one. i don't think new attractions are going to bring in as many people into the park as they hope. there other problems are keeping those people from coming. when you invest in something like new housing for employees/dining halls, its like a chain reaction. people want to work there and will enjoy it, which makes them happy, which makes customers happy, which brings in more people. its kind of like building a good franchise in football. becoming good and respected makes better players want to come and play for your team. it also makes people want to come and watch your team play which leads to more money, which leads to you being able to pay those good players there desired salary. make sense?

One more thought. It not only addresses those who are critical of us being critical as well as put another nail in the, "give 'em a break, they're seasonal" arguement.

The reason I cannot accept that as a crutch and the reason why there are some of us who see a good park and complain is because CP at one point in time was legitimately compared favorably to Disney and all of the other top tier parks. It isn't as if the park didn't earn its glowing reputation. Quite the contrary.

And they earned that reputation despite being hamstrung by the nasty ol man winter (insert sarcasm here). Winter or no winter, Cedar Point was among the best of the absolute best in value, service, cleanliness and quality. They still are in some respects, but not all respects in the past few years.

Cedar Point should be like a really good strip bar. I should leave it having spent a lot more money than I intended, and thoroughly glad I did. :)

Does anyone else think that DK's favorite movie is "Field of Dreams"?

Are you suggesting the 1919 Chicago Black Sox are going to come to Cedar Point as ghosts?

Cool. I wanna see that.

*shaking head*

The only problem is that Jackson would be restricted to the area by Thunder Canyon and Snake River Falls.

ROFL!

That was a good one:)

Hooper said:
I completely agree. Once you get in the park all you see is we want more of your money, and that would be ok to a point as long as I felt I was being treated great.

Actually, I feel that CP is still very friendly to it's guests. The criticism I have is only that budget cuts have diminished service to the point where it is affecting the experience. In no way do I feel like I'm not well treated.

They still do a lot of guest related things very well, like the policy of keeping the large ride lines open a few min. after closing. I've been to parks where they shut the lines down early, but CP always keeps the ride lines open until the end of the operating day. Safety is another thing they shine at, I believe that not even Disney has as good of a record.

I'll pay the high food prices with no complaints IF they keep operations and service to the standards they set in the 70's and 80's. The delayed ride openings, smaller staffs, etc. do affect the value of a day at CP and people are noticing.

As others have said, this thread isn't about bashing CP. Fans of the park are frustrated at some of the changes, and are offering constructive criticism, I'm sure most everyone here wants the park to thrive as it has since the George Roose and Emile LeGross era began.

Hmmm...great topic Jeff...naysayers aside. I think the comparisons between Disney/Cedar Point are not only a good idea...I think they are merited and the first people doing the comparisons should be the folks at Cedar Point.

Some thoughts:

Employee/Cast Member: There is no denying that fact that the employee plays a significant role in your feelings about a day in either park. Cedar Point is hiring an almost completely seasonal workforce, half of which is coming from overseas (if not more). The inspiration for the kids coming to work at the Point is not the Point (which is my point actually). Their inspiration is to come to the US, make some money, and see the States. When they get here, let's face it, they are in Sandusky. Not exactly New York, Florida, California...heck, not even Cleveland for that matter.

Disney hires a ton of full time employees. Those who aren't full time are "seasonal" but only in term. Recruiters go to college campuses and draw hundres while Cedar Point goes to campuses and draws dozens (if they are lucky). The kids who want to go to Disney WANT to go do Disney. Disney College Program folks can be selective. "Selectivity" for Cedar Point job recruiters was lost in the 80s. It isn't the place the kids want to work like it was back then and there are a lot of reasons for that. One is that they have more options back home where mom can cook, they have their internet, games and their own bed, etc. Another reason is the pay at Cedar Point, while "competitive"...and I use that term loosely...doesn't make up for what are generally crappy to embarassing living conditions.

And I will say this again: I believe I had $53 or so withdrawn from my paycheck every week and not once in four months did I say, "gee...I hate that they are taking money from me." On the contrary, I lived in a beautiful condominium with A/C, cable, fully furnished, kitchen with plates, dishes, etc. The complex had several pools, game rooms, volleyball, tennis, etc. I was, in effect, in an Orlando resort. Can Cedar Point duplicate that? Probably not. But, they aren't even making a half a$$ed effort. What could be their greatest draw in the Midwest is one of their greatest liabilities. Why? Dick has blinders on.

I can't speak for Cedar Point training programs now but they didn't hold a candle to the programs Disney has where there is a pixie dust brain washing program that is intense, to say the least, when I worked there.

Dick Kinzel does not see the seasonal workforce as a resource. I think he sees it as something he must tolerate. I think just about everyone who works under Dick probably knows more needs to be done to make working/living at Cedar Point more attractive but he will forever be a roadblock in that regard. Why? I have no idea. I guess what was good enough for him in the 70s should be good enough for kids today.

Everything Jeff has said about pricing is spot on. Cedar Point is out of control in many regards. I too question their throwing in the towel on the cheap cotton candy. $3 water? Insanity. I have been saying for years (as Jeff will attest to) that the per cap up...attendance down was a bad, bad omen. When I bought lunch at the MK a month or so ago I was very pleasantly suprised. Great food, decent price. It had value.

Oh, and I think parking at Disney is less than or at least the same as Cedar Point. But, for that I get a tram ride right to the ticket booths, the parking lot attendants get you in and out efficiently, etc.

What this thread says to me...and should SCREAM to Dick and the gang (particularly the Board of Directors) is that you should stand up and take note when your most ardent supporters are questioning the direction of your park/company. Not that Jeff, I or anyone can or should dictate terms to the powers that be. We have about as much authrority as the people who work for Dick (which is to say....next to none). But, even the Dixie Chicks learned the hard way that pissing off your core fans will bite you in the butt.

Pete said:

Hooper said:
I completely agree. Once you get in the park all you see is we want more of your money, and that would be ok to a point as long as I felt I was being treated great.

Actually, I feel that CP is still very friendly to it's guests. The criticism I have is only that budget cuts have diminished service to the point where it is affecting the experience. In no way do I feel like I'm not well treated.

They still do a lot of guest related things very well, like the policy of keeping the large ride lines open a few min. after closing. I've been to parks where they shut the lines down early, but CP always keeps the ride lines open until the end of the operating day. Safety is another thing they shine at, I believe that not even Disney has as good of a record.

I'll pay the high food prices with no complaints IF they keep operations and service to the standards they set in the 70's and 80's. The delayed ride openings, smaller staffs, etc. do affect the value of a day at CP and people are noticing.

As others have said, this thread isn't about bashing CP. Fans of the park are frustrated at some of the changes, and are offering constructive criticism, I'm sure most everyone here wants the park to thrive as it has since the George Roose and Emile LeGross era began.

I see your point, and they are friendly although I am not sure as friendly as say in the early to mid 2000 period. However I have no problem letting others chime in on that as I am sure there are people on here that have visited and have a better aspect for what the friendliness is like. I say that as I visited heavily back in the guidetothepoint.com days. That experience and overall park friendliness (spelling??) is what I miss.

In a nutshell I think to an extent you have to tie friendly and service together, not totally but somewhat. If the workers are distraught at the park then customer service and friendly people will be harder to find. Now I have not visited the park frequently in the last couple years so I don't have an accurate feel for that, but I think it is not what it was when this website started.

I took my fiancee out to eat at Michealangelos in little italy cleveland, (Very good highly recommend). The bill was over $100, I didn't care. The service was excellent, our wine and water was always refilled, they asked if we had any problems and treated us top notch.

I will agree for the most part on not being treated well, however I would say people could walk away thinking they may have been taken to the cleaner if comparing price to value.

Chief, you make wonderful observations, and especially about housing. I remember seeing Commons up close the first time and thinking "What did I get myself into." I knew that the housing wasn't exactly that great, but walking into a complex that made me think of a scene out of the Shawshank Redemption isn't the kind of first impression you want to be sending to your employees. I looked around when I got through the gate and when I saw the 1300 building sitting over there off to the side looking absolutely horrendously neglected (black stains and ivy all over the building doesn't look good), my first impression worsened further. I was already thinking that some of the temporary housing for victims of Katrina that I saw while in New Orleans was better than the employee housing. Then I got up to my room after the seemingly long walk back to the 1400 building, and couldn't believe they were actually stuffing 4 people into rooms that size. My first impression of working at the park was really bad, because the first thing I saw was housing, and it wasn't good, at all. It felt like a pretty unsafe environment, and still did by the time I left.

Unfortunately, I also have the feeling that threads like these, where those who care about the park lobby constructive criticism, are ignored; or possibly worse, read but not able to be acted upon in thoughts and ideas because of "Dad."

BlueStreak64:

"Unfortunately, I also have the feeling that threads like these, where those who care about the park lobby constructive criticism, are ignored; or possibly worse, read but not able to be acted upon in thoughts and ideas because of "Dad.""

Or even worse, laughed at while wondering why we don't get a life.

Well here's the thing about the park and reading this stuff. Frankly, they do read it. After almost 10 years, I've obviously built relationships with a lot of people there, been to weddings, seen friends score jobs, etc. That's what makes it hard for me to criticize the park, because ultimately people I consider friends are responsible for what I'm criticizing. I mean, I have the greatest respect for John Hildebrandt, the GM, because even as he has ascended the ranks to his position, he's not above chatting with me or even spending an hour talking about whatever. He certainly doesn't have to. He could write me off as some punk kid (er, 30-something kid) with a Web site, but he's willing to listen.

What happens beyond that? I don't know. I might have relationships with VP's and directors and whatever, but they're obviously not going to go into great detail about the internal politics and decision making at CP. Even if they did, what do I care? I'm still just a customer and only interested in the best possible experience and value for my cash.

Lower and middle managers, however, most of which I don't really know beyond names, will tell you all kinds of things, often by e-mail. And the bloodbath of the Paramount Parks "resource consolidation" is filled with bitter and pissed off ex-employees. The pattern very consistently directs the problems to the top. That's well beyond coincidence and firmly entrenched as a trend.

Someone asked if things will be different with the heir apparent, Jack Falfas. I've only met him once, when he was in the group ahead of me a couple of years ago for the Red Cross mini-golf fundraiser. Seemed like a nice enough guy, and frankly Kinzel seems that way too, but I don't work with them every day either. That said, Falfas had a very positive reputation on the West Coast, which seemed far enough away from the mothership to be largely autonomous. At the same time, ride ops have posted here that he was sending people home on soft attendance days, which strikes me as a job for people about four or five levels down from COO. Who knows, though, if that's the Kinzel influence or whatever.

My concern going forward is that they've acquired all of these new properties and tried to apply business models to them that worked in other parks, seemingly with complete disregard to the markets those parks serve. If the Paramount Parks attendance was a disaster, and it sure sounds like it since they didn't say anything specific about them in the results, then that shows a real issue of experience at the top in adapting and looking at each situation individually. And you know, a part of that is comes in the way they let go of all the people who did know what was going on.

If "they" are laughing at "us" wondering why we don't "get a life" then their problems are even more serious than I thought. We are, for lack of a better term, "their life". We are the reason for their being...at least 40 hours a week for 5 months or so. (Actually, more like 60-80-? hours a week for some of them.)

You know what you don't hear about much more on this website (or others for that matter)? Fanboys. Jeff and I and many others here use to be called fanboys on a fairly regular basis. And, I would contend, we didn't have as much to complain about back then.

We were the people who loved the park so much that either we saw no problems or had blinders on to the problems that did exist. But now, we have grown and in my case I have gone from a user to a seasonal employee to an employee to a family man who will be raising the next generation of fans. And, if I can be that close to the park yet still feel like things are slipping away, including my own enthusiasm, what does that say? If I'm Mr. Kinzel, that says I need to sit down and think about my role in the problem and see if I really am part of the solution or not.

I saw for my own eyes the beginning of the employee problem. I was there. I sat in on some of the very first "brainstorming" meetings that were meant to attack the obvious recruitment problem that was surfacing. In those meetings they (they being mostly mid-level managers with some exectutive level as well) took both a "short term" and "long term" look at recruitment and drew up a list of quantifiable goals, strategies, ideas, etc. The short term goals were largely ingnored save for a few token gestures. The long term goals were largely scoffed at.

If, back in the early-mid 90s, Cedar Point officials would have taken an aggressive approach to the housing situation then I think they are in a different place today. I certainly don't think they would be flying all over the world looking for help. But, for the past 20 years, other than a few buildings built at the most stark levels of comfort the bulk of their housing has only become more abysmal. It wasn't good in '95 and it certainly isn't good in 2008. Would they ever "compete" with Disney for employees? Not really. But, if Cedar Point were the second place kids considered to get away for the summer would that be so bad? And what would that take? I think some decent accommodations with nice amenities, maybe some decent athletic facilities, etc would be a heck of a start. Maybe some real internships that schools could buy into would be a step in the right direction.

I'm not sure how much the damage is really irreversible at this point. As Jeff stated, they not only have lost a wealth of experience at the Paramount parks, they have also lost decades of experience at the original parks. Does Jack have the capacity to undo some of that? Maybe he does. Will it happen with Dick at the helm? I'm afraid not. It isn't that an old dog can't learn new tricks...it is that the dog has to be willing to try.

And, I don't think Dick is going to be admitting that he has to fix things when he won't admit they are broken to begin with. Housing problem? There's no housing problem.

Kids move into the dorms every year. Well, sure. But, the International kids get here and can't exactly change their minds...unlike many, many American kids who walk into the dorms and walk right back out and get back in mom's car. And, how are those International kids working out for you? I know this for sure...they are now going to more and more countries to recruit. So, either the word is out that CP ain't as great as the brochure makes it look...or economics are changing and the foreign workers are better off at home. Either way, that doesn't bode well.

The per cap is increasing. Sure, but, as has been said...that dog won't hunt for much longer. Having just returned from Ohio I can tell the economy there hasn't improved, and I hear Michigan is worse. A $3 water is even harder to swallow when you are having trouble making your mortgage payment.

We will concentrate on the family...and that will bring the crowds back. (Well, in theory I actually agree with the concept here...though I still contend that Maverick is NOT a family ride that required the demise of one of the best "family" rides in the park.) You can build another Camp Snoopy and I think that will help the folks who are already coming to the park...maybe even increase their feelings of value...but it won't drive attendance and if you are going to completely bend them over a chair at the food counter (leaving them unsatisfied at that) then it is a wash.

Disney has been reinvigorated with the change of leadership from Eisner to Roth. Going back to our "comparisons" I think it might be time for something similar along the lake.

Disney is the best. That is all we ever hear. Why do older people even like Disney? It is definetly for the younger ones. I went there once and all the rides are just plain boring. I prefer no theming and great ride over amazing theming and bad ride.

You really can not compare Disney and Cedar Point, because they are both so much different in their own way. Disney may be cleaner, because it is families that go there. Cedar Point is still clean, but could be cleaner, but it is mainly because of the teen atmosphere. Cedar Point does try to attract families, but mainly focuses on the teen and thrill seekers. Disney on the other hand wants to attract mainly families. See the difference? They are both set up in their own ways. Disney usually hires older people (boring people for that matter) and CP hires fun teens that makes the experience way more fun. I would rather spend a day at CP over Disney ANYDAY. Heck, I would rather be at Six Flags America over a Disney park.

CPboy77 said:
Cedar Point is still clean, but could be cleaner, but it is mainly because of the teen atmosphere.

So, because I'm a teenager, I won't care that my living conditions, working conditions and recreational areas (meaning, the park and other parts of the resort) are a complete mess? Or, the park doesn't need to be clean because it only caters to teens? Either way, I think you're thinking is a bit flawed. It should be clean regardless.

Hey, I'm a teen too. Teens are more messy then adults and that is a fact. Who do you think makes the gum wall every year by Raptor? I can't imagine adults or a family doing that, that's for sure. Or if a bunch of teens are eating at a table or something they will usually leave their trash there, while a family would clean up the mess.

Do teens sometimes not care about property that doesn't belong to them, even their own property, and leave it a little messy, sure. But, the statement you're making is a strong generalization. I can honestly say I do not fall into that category. I don't stick gum to anything, whether it's Cedar Point or my mother's kitchen table. I clean up after myself when I eat. I throw things away in a garbage can rather than into a bush. I have to believe that I'm not the only one.

The point is, who visits the park should not mandate how clean it is. The fact of the matter is, people of all ages visit. Either way, the park should be clean.

Yeah, I am just like you. I would never put gum on the wall, I always throw my trash out, etc. It sucks though a lot of teens are the opposite of us.