Thoughts on CP while fresh from Disney

Cedarpointer, take a look around pointbuzz and you'll find plenty of threads focused on the positives of Cedar Point. This thread happens to be focused on the negatives of Cedar Point.

^No one is saying that CP should become the Midwest's Magic Kingdom, however there are parts of Disney that most of us feel CP can and should emulate, these include: food, park ops, cleanliness, pricing, and Im sure Im forgetting other ones.

Why I'm bothering, I don't know...

Cedar Pointer said:

2. You can't compare cedar point to disney and disney to cedar point. They are two very different kinds of experiences.

And Cedar Point is a different experience from Kings Island, Geauga Lake, Six Flags Great Adventure... is Cedar Point so superior that they can not be compared to anyone?

Cedar Pointer said:

3.Why are you guys dissing cedar point? And don't say your not, because you are.

Sometimes people can like, even love, a place, a thing, a person, so much that they want to see nothing but improvements for it. No one is "dissing" Cedar Point. Instead, people are merely pointing out their observations and providing ideas on how it can be improved.

Cedar Pointer said:

5.Whoever said that "Cedar Pointsweight will become its own down fall or in your words "collapses underits own weight", NO IT WONT!! Did you forget Cedar Point has seen 2world wars, a depresion and a tornado and is stilll standing tall.

And how many of those involve poor operations, service and value on the part of the park?

Cedar Pointer said:
This is completiy .

1. I thought this was POINTbuzz.com NOT "which isbetter.com".
...

6. Have you guys forgot that this website is about CEDAR POINT Not Disney?
...

Andfinaly, if this is suppose to be the best cedar point website to findinfo and news then why are you guys dissing it?

...and Cedar Point is still involved in this discussion. It's constructive criticsm.

Cedar Pointer said:

12. Disney World is a theme park. Cedar Point is an amusment park. These are two completely different things.

Differences in appearance and experience? Yes. Overall, however, they have a similar method of operation. They are both parks providing thrills and entainment in the form of shows, food, rides and attractions to their guests.

Cedar Pointer said:

13.Whatif Tony or Tyler (from the CP online blog) came here and saw this? NowI'm not a feeler but I'm saying that I'm sorry about this blog.

Does this even make any sense?

Cedar Pointer said:

You are what you eat.

Better stop eating sand then, cause your defenses just floated down river like some sediment.

Okay I'm old enough to remember this, but George Roose and Emile LeGross said publically that they were going to turn Cedar Point into "the Disneyland of the Midwest". They spent a lot of time studying Disney operating practices, and hiring away several key Disney people. They patterned several crucial philosophies from the Mouse. All that is being pointed out here is perhaps it's time to dig out those studies again and go through them,

Nothing is perfect, there is always room for improvement. When you stop doing that, you're in trouble,

I remember that also Dutchman, and I think George Roose and Emile LeGross really delivered!

I think the main problem today is with cost cutting and price gouging at the expense of the guest's experience. Roose and LeGross, and later Robert Munger, seemed to put the guest experience first, today it seems the guests come after the shareholders.

Examples: Delayed ride openings, part-time racing on Gemini, closed food stands, too few staff to run a ride efficiently (lots of examples), outrageous food prices, shorter operating hours.

I would imagine if they had one platform attendant for each car on a Gemini train they would have no problem loading people fast enough to run three trains even with the seat belts. Same thing with a lot of the flat rides. They used to staff those with 2-3 people, now they get one.

I wonder how many people waiting in long lines that move slower than in the past have a diminished experience and don't come back for awhile. In the past, CP was a great experience no matter how crowded the park was. That does not really hold true anymore.

Wow, I actually like this subject. I have different views I guess on most of this. I don’t travel much I admit so don’t hate me for it. I have never been to Disney, for one reason. I can’t afford it. I have been to Cedar Point many times. Me and my girlfriend found more value in driving 5 hours to Ohio than to visit Great America which is only 20 minutes away. This changed big time when gas doubled in price over the past 6 years. And I work at CP for 2 of them. But I still haven’t been to Six Flags since.

I agree the admission prices are not an issue. I love how people always mention the gate prices from the brochure. Anyone with half a brain or a computer can get a better price at both parks.

But I’m sorry to compare a full time resort to a seasonal park is hard in some ways.

The hotels / campgrounds at Cedar Point sits abandoned for 3 to 4 months. While I agree spiders and bugs shouldn’t be a thought for anyone to think about, you’re staying in some places that are 75 years old or longer. Being from the Midwest, my family had a cottage in Holland, MI. Every year when we opened it up in the spring, it took a week to clear the webs, bugs, ect. But no matter how much you try, they will find a crack. CP is also in the middle of water. Anyone who has been to the park knows, bugs are everywhere during times of the year. A Disney room is cleaned almost daily, and I’m sure the building is much more modern and secure from bugs. After all they do need to be prepared for things like hurricanes. Off subject , Disney ever been HIT by one?? To fix the bug problem I feel they would almost have to rebuild most of the OLD buildings. Which I’m not even sure they can do. I’m not sure if they are protected properties. Plus this would kill revenues for a summer. Stock holders don’t like that stuff. The light bulb issue I can’t address because there is no excuse for it.

Parking . The traffic issue is unavoidable ladies and gentleman. CP is an island. HAHA, something CP has going for it! To expand the causeway would just cause more problems elsewhere unless a highway goes to the front gate. I’m not sure how Disney’s parking is, but I’m pretty sure most of the people staying on point are parked back away from the daily traffic jam. I’d be interested to know how the parks compare as far as daily car traffic. Just about everybody I know going to Disney, stays for many days. As far as the price, it’s still cheaper than anything with a ticket I do around Chicago. But once again, it’s something I pay normally everywhere so why get bothered by it.

Water. I personally use water fountains. So that price doesn’t bother me so much. I love the studies of late that show bottled water sometimes is dirtier than tap water. Plus don’t think for a second the water fountains don’t have a filters on them. I agree that $3 is a bit pricey for it. I’m guessing that Disney doesn’t use this item for profit. Kinda like CP did with cotton candy couple years ago. I grew up as a kid drinking from a yard hose as did all the kids in the area. Nobody I think died from it yet?

Food Service- This is a touchy subject with me because I worked in Foods. When every future employee thinks about working at Cedar Point. Foods is the last thing on their mind. Unless they understand the serving positions can make large bank. Those positions are only given to those who deserve them, know somebody, or got lucky. So while there are some great people, the other departments get more of them even though Foods has I think over a third of them. But the show must go on. So hiring can get difficult for these jobs. I have more respect for foods employees because they are sometimes put into impossible situations. Staffing is always unpredictable. And having everyone in the right place, at the right time is not that easy. They could schedule everybody to work at lunch and dinner. But sorry, that’s not how most eat at an amusement park. You eat when your hungry or your body clock says it‘s time. This time can change from day to day and is not decided by a watch.

I know that at Mr Potato, we had two rush periods. After every dive show, then at sundown. I noticed that people eat when they think it’s about to get dark (which changes every day). This doesn’t apply to cloudy or rainy days! The problem is we (the management) are only human and while we try to guess when to be full staffed, sometimes it’s not going to happen. Either by staff or by law. Child labor laws require breaks, employees do actually get off time (they like a break too), etc! But to wait in line doesn’t have to happen if you just eat when everybody else isn’t. Most stands have at least 4-5 dead hours in the day. I will make no excuse for cold food because it should be thrown in the garbage. And I also don’t think it happens as much as I see it written on this site. I know they will replace it if it’s not how you want it. Unless you bring the final 10% of the order and say it’s cold (it has happened to me). CP does realize you expect hot food for the prices they charge.

Staffing . Disney has a completely different hiring process. College kids are a large part of it. To have Disney on your resume will kick the but t of the Cedar Fair name. The other is the full time factor. Disney has a base of Full time employees. Cedar Point only full time people are management. Everybody else goes home and you don’t collect unemployment. So unless you are well off, you will need to find another job during the winter. Either A- a regular full time benefit job, or B-a $7 an hour job ( you will need two of them!) to get you through until next season. If your answer is A, your probably not going back. This is something that Disney doesn’t have to deal too much with. Plus as the American Dollar goes down in value, the more it’s not worth the international employees to come here.

Many have said they should raise what everybody makes. Everybody starts at a entry level position and salary. You can work your way up to more money ( I know this because I did it). But if people think they are going to make a living off 7 months of full time work, they are kidding themselves. If your goal is over 25k a year, you either have to be very dedicated to it, or find a different place to work. Sorry but that’s not going to change. Most college kids with a future can find an internship with much better pay in the field of which they are studying. This isn’t going to change and once again I will mention the Disney name will go much further the Cedar Fair.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that I don’t expect Cedar Point to compare to the wonderful world of Disney. I would like to visit it someday, and Universal. But will settle for Cedar Point until money says I can. I still think the mouse plays on a national level and is different. That is why they only have two US locations. Cedar Point, while it hopes for National attention, I think focuses on the Midwest to the east coast more. They could try and change this but I don’t think the money it would take would bring the revenue it would require. As far as the attendance going down a couple percent, this should not surprise anyone. Sorry but the US economy is down a little. Gas is still up there. Considering most drive. I mean how many people actually fly to Cleveland and rent a car to spend a week at Cedar Point. I’m done for now.

This is only MY opinion. I, from what I’ve read here, thought that everybody was please with the 2007 addition of Maverick. Planet Snoopy gives a more modern look to a kids area, I hope! Plus they are doing a revamp on some hotel rooms so maybe some of these issues are being worked on! I guess it all depends on what your looking for. Me, I want CP to continue to be America’s Roller Coast!

I think we're comparing apples and oranges. It was best put by a Sandusky native working at the KFC during my first visit. She said "if you're looking to be entertained, go to Disney, if you want the thrill of your life, go to Cedar Point." After that visit I asked mt kids where they wanted to go next year and it was a unanimous Cedar Point.

I think Cedar point is an excellent value. Yes the food and drink cost are steep but you'd pay the same at any Major League sporting event. I've stayed in the cheaper rooms at Breakers and they were more than adequate and didn't think they were overpriced. We're going to Disney in April and already in it for over $4,000, travel, tix, room, and meal plan. Last year we took advantage of the Max Pass visited Dorney Park, Kings Island, Cedar Point as well as Hershey and it was less than $3,000. Plus we were able to return in October, my disney tix must be used within 15 days.

I've always thought the park was clean, The volunteer help in October is lacking. We also have to remember that The Walt Disney Co. has a never ending budget which I'm sure Cedar Fair couldn't come close to. I would like to see them impliment a Fast Pass type system so I don't have to sprint across the park at ERT to avoid waiting in line for Maverick or MF.

So after making sure I get the most entertainment value of every penny I'm investing into Disney, I can't wait to take that 11 hour ride to CP for the thrill value!!!! Ride on.

That's just the point that you and so many others here are missing: we're not comparing park to park. What is so hard to get about that?

We're comparing standards of park operations, guest services, pricing...and I really hate the excuses you're all coming up with:

"Cedar Point is a thrill park"
"Cedar Point doesn't make that much money"
"Cedar Point is not Disney"
"Attendance and crowds are unpredictable at Cedar Point"
"Pricing at the park is on par with a major sporting event"
"Cedar Point is perfect/not wrong/a dream/has never changed"

For what Cedar Point touts itself as: "The Amazement Park", that phrase carries a hell of a lot more than just world class rides...rides that in recent times have been missing intervals so badly that ridership numbers have plummeted.

Cedar Point's pricing theory is the problem itself. People charge what they do at sporting events because they can get away with it. You pay out the ass for parking in downtown cleveland because you want a good spot to park. You can pay cheaper, but you risk your car being broken into, or a very long walk. Theres a big difference when parking on an island, with the park within two-three minutes of every parking space. And yet parking keeps going up why?

Cedar Point charges what they do because they base it on per-capita, which seems to be the only basis for raising prices on the same crap on a plate that they've been serving for years. (Imagine how much more money the park would make by serving more than just your typical fair food...yes its a staple of any amusement park, but CP should be a step above, not three steps behind)

We get that Cedar Point is about rides...hence why the park has the sad perspective that if you build it, they will come...well what happens when rides like TTD break down every other minute opening day?

Finally, we understand that the employees get paid very little, and are expected to do a lot, they don't have the tools necessary to be efficent like Disney is, nor do they have the staffing, at least not at the appropriate times. Both of these problems can easily be solved, but the park won't justify it. What the park justifies are things that will give them boosts in numbers in one season, not over time. If they stepped out of the safety circle that is their operation: you might have to spend money initially, but over time, the rewards reaped will be ten-fold.

Cedar Point makes plenty of money, and has plenty of months of operation to justify every single one of Jeff's suggestions. Some of you just see the park for its rides, and thats your opinion, but I think the stocks and decline in guest satisfaction over the past four years speak for themselves.

Cedar Pointer: Seeing as how I run the site and you don't, I think I'll reserve the right to decide what to talk about. Thanks for playing.

A lot of you are missing the point... this is not me saying I want CP to be Disney. What I'm saying is that the relative experience and value is quickly getting lost. When a park, or a set of parks actually, installs $100 million rides (Expedition Everest), and you pay fractions of amounts for food of better quality compared to Cedar Point, that's an issue. The yearly results that say, "per cap slightly up, attendance slightly down," is a problem.

I still don't completely understand why they gave up on the 25 cent cotton candy. They were finally doing something that created good will that people remembered at a relatively low cost to them, and they kicked their customers in the nuts by taking it away. After years of hearing co-workers say things like, "Dragster was broken," I finally heard things like, "We pigged out on cotton candy and had a great time." While that hardly constitutes a scientific observation, it's also not something you can easily hang a price on. It's like the "free" soda at Holiday World. No one is silly enough to think you're not paying for it, but the perception of value is much greater, and it's the reason I go back year after year (that, and some wood coasters you may have heard about).

The seasonal employee thing is an interesting discussion point. I've expressed my opinion before that I don't think the company values its human resources, and nowhere was that more apparent than when they acquired Paramount Parks. Money isn't the only issue. Give the kids somewhere to live that isn't a dump. Give them free Wi-Fi. Empower them to make decisions and take pride in what they do.

And here's the thing, to make that happen, it has to happen throughout the org chart. I'd hate to be a VP or director at CP because you've got dad watching you constantly. The cultural impact of that is huge when you compare experiences to people at other parks, and it's unfortunate.

Like I said, I don't have the answers. It's easy to get in a pattern of cost control to meet targets, especially as a public company, but there comes a point where it degrades the product and ultimately reduces sales. With the religious focus on ROI, the idea that you have to spend money to make money, it's easy to overlook the somewhat intangibles that give the product polish and value. That's what's going on.

901liveson said:After all they do need to be prepared for things like hurricanes. Off subject , Disney ever been HIT by one??

My family and I visited Disney in August of 2004. On Friday the 13th hurricane Charley came through Orlando. The park closed early on the 13th, and opened up late on the 14th while the removed downed tree's. They did a excelent job cleaning up the parks. Kali River Falls never did open back up during our visit.

Whether or not you think it's fair to compare CP to where ever doesn't matter. People do just that all the time. Ultimately using excuses like, "well, Cedar Point is seasonal so they're at a disadvantage," is garbage. The consumer will not allow for it. They will vote with their feet.

Now I'm not saying the CP is anywhere near this yet, but the experience in Aurora should be noted by the CF folk. People turn their back on a long standing park if they feel that the value is poor enough.

I think that ultimately those of us who like to point out the recent shortcomings in customer service areas only do so because we care about the park. I would also point out that we are also among the first to defend the park or point out when the park exceeds expectations. (A "quick" perusal over the past seven years of posts would prove that). I would further wager that each and every one of us with constructive criticism prays that those running the park read every word and heeds the warnings.

But back to the point i was driving at earlier. Someone compared the CP price points to concert or sport venue price points. I would argue that that is not a fair comparison. Primarily since a concert/ballgame is usually a four hour affair while a park visit is most commonly an entire day. They are different experiences.

On the other hand Disney and CP are in the same business. Amusement parks. One may be a theme and another a thrill park, but that's just semantics in this conversation. People choose to goto one park or another based on where they want to spend their disposable income. Where they see the best value for their dollar. Now while not everyone will be able to goto and see Disney in response to poor service at CP, but they can stop attending the park and doing something else. And while not an empirical result, more people I know choose to go to CP less often than in the past primarily due to a perception of expense and long lines. It's getting harder and harder for me to debate their point of view.

I'm just saying...

Jeff said:
And here's the thing, to make that happen, it has to happen throughout the org chart. I'd hate to be a VP or director at CP because you've got dad watching you constantly. The cultural impact of that is huge when you compare experiences to people at other parks, and it's unfortunate.

When "Dad" finally decides to leave, do you think that micromanaged culture will still exist with the new leadership? Are all the issues identified in this thread reversible with a change at the top?

I believe that it all depends who it is that replaces "Dad." I think that there are many within the company who would not result in a positive change if they took over at the top. We've already discussed this subject with Falfas, and arrived at that conclusion (no real positive change).

1) They can't jack the in-park prices up any higher than they already are. I think that much is given. However, they seem to be able to hold them at their current levels. The next step has to come with the gate price. It's still really low for what the park offers. I don't the consumer demand is as elastic as everyone thinks in terms of gate price, especially if a $10 increase is spread over a few years.

2) In-park advertising. I know some people dislike the extent to which it takes place at Six Flags parks, but this is basically free money the park isn't taking. Even vaunted Disney has their attractions "sponsored" (Space Mountain, presented by FedEx, anyone)?

There may indeed be something to the idea that CP is at a disadvantage due to its seasonal calendar. It's true that the park only gets to a few months worth of customers to recoup its cap ex, compared to a Disney or Universal park.

But on the other hand, BGE is seasonal as well, and although I've never been there I've heard that they do very well at many of the issues we're discussing. So that kind of shoots that argument down.

Regardless, it simply just doesn't matter to the customers. They're the ones who will be bringing the repeat business, spending all that moolah on shirts and food and assorted Cedar Point-branded crap. If they feel like they're being held up at gunpoint, they won't be returning. And trust me, as someone who loves and adores all amusement parks, I feel like I'm being robbed every time I go. If l'il me, a lone enthusiast - the choir, if you will - feels that way, you can bet harried Mom and Pop with the three urchins are feeling it as well.

Know what I remember most about my trip to Beech Bend last year? Well, obviously Kentucky Rumbler. But secondly, the free sun tan lotion. I didn't even use any, but it still made me feel good about the place. That's what Cedar Point is missing, and that's why CF parks run with this mentality will by and large drop in attendance in coming years until it's fixed.

Edit: CP needs to ensure that customers feel good about the value they receive at the park. NOT necessarily free sun tan lotion, before somebody starts riffing on me. ;)

im very startled by what everyone is saying about the park. i go out 6 times per year and every time i go i rarely see any of this stuff. besides the bathroom near magnum, every bathroom is clean. if all of you think CP is bad you need to try going to SFNE. i live an hour away from there and i go to CP more times in a year then SFNE. in fact ive been to SFNE 2 times in my entire life. that place is awful. dirty isn't even the word. expensive. and employees are terrible. half the rides i went on the restraints WERE NOT CHECKED, never mind half of them not being able to speak English

Go to Coasters some time. When you do finally get through the line (where they take your money) you get to wait in another line for the cook in back to get around to making your food.

This is even worse when it is DEAD and the cashier is more interested in talking to her friends than helping you.

Cedar Pointer - the biggest fans SHOULD be the biggest critics. When you start to turn a blind-eye to areas that could use improvement is when you become a fan-boy and your opinion becomes marginalized.

I completely agree. Once you get in the park all you see is we want more of your money, and that would be ok to a point as long as I felt I was being treated great. If I can walk away thinking that was awesome, the people were top notch, nothing left unturned money isn't a problem.....because you know they can deliver. CP has fallen here. Alot of my extended family will be in town this summer, and CP will not be one of the top places I recommend. I see more value in the local waterparks. Because I know what they will get. Outrageous prices, long ride lines, long food lines, poor food. Plus the fact that they would be considered "tourists" and would really want a local to guide them through the park. Being they will be here late june/eary july that is not the time to goto the park. The other thing that is a problem is how the ride operations are just not as fast and fun anymore. Some operators just move the people and don't care much about intervals. As I think of it you can't blame them alot for that, being that their pay isn't the greatest nor some of their housing. Ironically enough I have not bought my season pass for CP yet this year. Perhaps a lack of value inside the park???

A lot of you are missing the point... this is not me saying I want CP to be Disney. What I'm saying is that the relative experience and value is quickly getting lost.

And it's not just an interesting discussion, it's an important one. Frankly, I would hope those at CP that peek in on these boards pay more attention to threads like these than threads that talk about what kind of roller coaster we would like to see next, etc.

The quality of food can only be solved by the management. Having never worked at CP, I am getting the idea that they don't exactly have the best environment for managers to make decisions (i.e., "dad" looking over your shoulder). This is horrid, and is most certainly a part of the reason many of the changes I would like to see at the park I love don't ever happen.

I think one of the most salient, easy to observe, solutions is this:

Give the kids somewhere to live that isn't a dump. Give them free Wi-Fi. Empower them to make decisions and take pride in what they do.

Now I have never worked there, but I have had friends who have been entertainers, and what they described was nothing short of a nightmare. A true dump...and aside from doing something they loved to do, each of them said they would never, under any circumstances, EVER work at CP again, simply due to the conditions they were forced to live in.

I dont think this point can be emphasized enough. In fact, I think we would all agree that the service and general attitude (I said general, as I am aware that many of you are outstanding employees who love being at CP...and you know who you are) of employees is, to be kind, pathetic. Especially as the season goes on. The vast majority of employees (especially the food stands) look as if they believe they are in purgatory.

Now I have said this again and again about my other beefs about the park (which is beautification and architectual consistency), but I would say it about this as well.

Here's my solution: Take 2 years off of building any new attractions. No million dollar kiddie sections, no 20 million dollar coasters or 7 million dollar flats. Take the money earmarked for such a project, and build new dorms, dining halls, etc...and improve the quality of life for these people.

I share the gripe about service, but many times when I am at the park, I simply feel sorry for the employee, because I know that Cedar Point shows him or her zero respect.

New England Rider said,

We also have to remember that The Walt Disney Co. has a never ending budget which I'm sure Cedar Fair couldn't come close to.

Why is it that so many people seem to think that because Disney is a large company, that resources are endless. It is not! Is their budget bigger than Cedar Fair's? Probably so, but it is still a budget, and it still has limitations. The key to a budget, is not how big it is, but how you apply it. Just because you may have more funds to use, doesn't mean that someone with less funds can use them more wisely than you, and in the long run, come out in a better position.