Thoughts on CP while fresh from Disney

I'm a reluctant Disney fan. For the longest time I didn't want to like Disney because it's too universally well liked, and should be homogenized and boring for that reason. Plus, people throw money at them for arguably cheesy stuff like Hannah Montana. It just feels dirty.

But the truth is, Disney does almost everything right, and the more time I spend in their parks, the more I appreciate that. It brings up my expectations (as does Universal), which is perhaps contributing to the reasons that Cedar Point fails to meet them. I don't want to be a hater, but I do want to constructively point out some things about Cedar Point that are frankly less than stellar.

I talk about the value proposition a lot, and how Cedar Point's isn't what it used to be. It comes down to what I feel like I'm getting for my money (and what I feel isn't the same as what I get... only the feeling really matters in this business). I pay for my season pass, and then spend little money outside of the external franchise restaurants (Friday's and Dave's), because I don't think there's any value. I don't feel like I get anything worth my money.

Let's start with the food. Cedar Point sucks at food. They have for a very long time. The quality and variety sucks. The healthy options are hard to find. Putting in a Panda Express and a Chic-fil-A might attract the dollars, but I can eat that anywhere, and it's not that good anyway. The counter service locations offer some of the most dreadful service at any park I've been to, and it has been that way for years. I don't understand how they can continue to operate that way. Want to boost my cash input to the system? Don't keep me waiting.

Disney variety is a little hit or miss depending on the park (and no one will ever have a fleet of amazing restaurants the way Epcot does), but in the general sense they keep people moving, prices are lower and you can find things that won't kill you within 24 hours. Serving decent food in massive quantities is a solved problem. Why is CP so terrible at it?

And then there's the price of the food. Talk about feeling dirty! A fountain soda at Disney is $2.09. Not a bargain, but I can stomach it. A bottled water is $1.25. Also no bargain, but within reason and the range of expectations for a theme park. Asking me to pay three bucks for a bottle of water is insulting.

While on that subject, Skee-Ball is still a quarter at Disney.

Ride operations at Disney are amazing. Granted, a lot of the rides are engineered in a way that promote high capacity and efficiency. Their loose article policy is basically that there isn't one. I've brought my camera backpack on Space Mountain and Tower of Terror. But even at Universal, where it's not realistic to bring something like that on Dueling Dragons, they have the free lockers. People don't bring crap into line, and they don't complain or whatever because they aren't inconvenienced. The experience is simply better.

I personally don't have an issue at Cedar Point in this respect because I'm a minimalist when it comes to what I carry. But the truth is that crap bins on platforms are slowing rides down. And where they're not available, they annoy people, especially with the pay lockers. People have paid $40+ to get in, $10 to park, $3 for a soda, and now you want another couple bucks to pack their crap in a locker? What value is there in that locker? None. It's pissing away money.

With regards to resorts, I don't think Cedar Point has ever been a good value. The trouble there is that it's hard to find incentive to improve services or pricing when you're booking the place solid. When you stay in a lot of four and five diamond AAA rated hotels, you expect to get what you pay for. CP resorts are very hit or miss. In '06 I had a relatively trouble free experience. In '07, my Lighthouse Point stay was a disaster with a dirty cottage full of cobwebs, burned out lights and someone else's toothbrush on the floor of the bathroom. The staff was indifferent, and you can bet I didn't get any credit for the affair either.

Disney is responsive and on it when there is a problem, even in the value resorts. I keep going back to CP every year out of tradition, but I'm so reluctant because I don't feel like I get the service I should.

Overall though, Disney approaches their profit target from the view of the guest, and aligns that with its own goals. In other words, they're focused on giving the guest the best experience in terms of quality, pricing and waiting around, in a way that they can efficiently monetize. The Cedar Fair approach has become higher per cap to compensate for sagging attendance, and I think with numbers being essentially flat even with Maverick, we've hit the end of that run. They need to work hard to restore a sense of value and respect for their customer. I refuse to believe they have to do that at the expense of the bottom line. I know they have the talent to figure it out, if they'd be given the authority to do so.

I realize that in being critical, I'm not offering solutions. The truth is, that's not my job. As a fairly well-off 30-something, though I don't have any children, I'm spending far more money in Orlando than I am at Ohio Cedar Fair parks, and that should trouble them. If I'm doing it, imagine what a family of four is doing.

So this is my challenge to Cedar Point... restore my perception of value. Show me a good time, without me noticing it. That's what makes an amusement business successful.

Jeff,

I completely agree with you. At Cedar Point, it can be hard to find value in anything. At Disney, it seems like even the price of my admission ticket is a value, when you consider what each park has to offer. From there, their Guest Service is amazing. I often think of Disney as a Utopia, of sorts because of that. Going to Disney truly is a vacation. I don't need to lift a finger. And to back it all up, I feel like I'm getting what I pay for.

Disney's Ride Operation is the best. I think it has a lot of do with people who actually want to work there. At Cedar Point, in a lot of cases, you'll find Ride Operators, who treat their job as just another job, which is a shame. I agree on the whole article bins on the platforms, a complete hindrance on the loading process.

I too believe that Cedar Fair has the means, especially with Cedar Point, to turn its Service around. It's rather a question of will they spend the money and time? Will people even notice? To many people, Cedar Point is a regional, few times a year park. To Disney, it's a once in a year (if that) park, and their expectations are a lot higher. It has become almost, that at Cedar Point, the Service is acceptable to the General Public.

I agree with both of you on a lot of things in your post.

The fact is though, I don't think many of these things

will be corrected. I, like thousands and thousands of 

people, will continue to return to CP every year for one

main reason: unbelieveable rides. I am a junkie. I admit

it. Nowhere else can you get the coaster experience like 

you can at CP. Unfortunately, CF probably realizes that

too and knows that guests will continue to come. There 

are a lot of improvements I wish they would make. Food 

is horrible and it's priced through the roof. But as long

as people keep coming in the gates, it probably won't 

change.

Disney really does price their food at a decent level and their bottled water is right on the mark for what I usually pay from vending machines that I see all over the place. That gives the guest no reason to hesitate about buying something, if it is priced at the same level as outside the park, and as such, will be more likely to make multiple purchases of a similar nature.

I basically have the exact same opinions after visiting Disney last year. I agree with the fact that CP has the talent to fix it all, but they just aren't allowed to do so.

Gomez said:
CP has the talent to fix it all, but they just aren't allowed to do so.

Are we blaming Dick for this? Im just asking because I dont understand about why they arent allowed to.

One thing is Cedar Point might have staffing issues concerning wait times, extreme spiders, unclean park, and poor quality of food.

Next thing is Cedar Point just might..just might have the wrong idea with some food items they serve, and how they offer us a real value.

For instance this new spinning ride coming in...does it look cool? Hell yes, but I bet it will cost like $15 per person.

I think CP just doesn't make the money that Disney does so that they can expand on things. I mean just to have Peanuts and stuff in the park costs them so much. CP is trying to "gouge us" like SF parks do to get the capital they need for the next project that will most definitely keep us happy, but no real improvements to the park are made.

They might re-do the sidewalks and stuff and put landscaping in.

But to design what Universal has for theme park decorations could be very costly. I am sure CP has looked at how much it costs to get all kinds of really cool things to look at.

CP in the mean time will try to capture insane profits from us with the food prices so that they can...hopefully offer something more to look at then old moldy frontier buildings. Haha

Your mom is to fat to ride TTD. said:

Gomez said:
CP has the talent to fix it all, but they just aren't allowed to do so.

Are we blaming Dick for this? Im just asking because I dont understand about why they arent allowed to.

Budget. Place that blame where you will, but that's ultimately what it comes down to every time.

Jeff, while I agree with your points, and have always shared your criticisms (in addition to a few of my own), I do have a question.

I have always assumed that one of the main reasons Disney has the better price points, quality of food, etc., is simply due to the nature of the beast. That is, Disney is an entity that owns networks, produces movies, toys, etc...while Cedar Fair simply has its parks. Doesn't the enormous profit turned in by Disney as a whole contribute to their ability to offset a lot of pricing while at the same time offering high quality?

Interestingly, other parks that, IMO, does a lot of things better along the same lines are the Busch parks and Hersheypark. But here, once again, in both examples, we have companies that operate parks but at the same time operate at a completely different financial level with multiple products in the market.

I have to believe some of these things simply cant change, at least in comparison to the other parks that make money in ways other than simply their ticketbooth at the parks.

Am I off base here?

Wow! Jeff. just Wow.

I don't know if I expect that kind of report from you, but it was

interesting -none-the-less.

I have been to Walt Disney World (2) times, and Cedar Point at least

30 times in the last (2) years. I got a second season pass two years in a

row because of Maverick, and I am not getting one this year, because

we are making a trip to Disney... Here is my problem though. It will

cost me around $2500.00 just to get to Disney World (7 day stay)

and around $3000 to $4000 to spend at Disney..

Last year with the Cedar Point combo Pass & Joe Cool I went to

Cedar Point, Soak City, Geauga Lake, Kings Island, and Carowinds,

Including Travel Cost, and Hotels, and Park Spending (including 15 or

so times I went to Cedar Point) I spent only around $1500-$2000.

That means I could have gone to Cedar Fair Parks about 3 years in a

row for the same cost to go to Disney only once. I don't expect the

service I get at Disney at Cedar Fair Parks. And I really trust Cedar

Fair's Maintenance over other Parks. Is there more money going to

Maintenance to keep the rides safer, that's why some cost are higher?

Just my 2 cents.

Remember this:

Two years ago CF CUT prices. Attendance was down, revenue was flat. CF has empirical evidence that more "reasonable" prices aren't a bigger draw. Makes no sense, but it happened--chainwide.

Conversely, Disney jacked up admission prices. Attendance and revenue increased. CF increased prices last year, revenue was up. And the extra $1 CP tacked on to tickets last fall didn't seem to hurt Halloweekends.

No one is complaining about ticket and season pass prices though. They're complaining about the lack of value INSIDE the park - and this is due to a combination of high prices and crappy quality/selection.

I totally agree with everything Jeff has said here. Anyone objective would too if they get around to some other parks - especially Disney and Universal.

Maybe it's not even fair to compare CP to Disney, but CP isn't even as good as the CP of a few years ago with all their new rules, policies, and de-emphasis on efficiency.

You have just articulated why I just rank Disney in a category all their own, they are the platinum standard in all areas, no where else do I fell like Ive (to sound corney) entered Fantasyland, its amazing. In another ten years when I have the money I do hope to do what you manage to do every year, take a trip down to FL.

That doesnt mean CP cant strive towards it though. Welcome to the Disney Fan Club Jeff!

I've always been a Disney fan (heck that's where we went on our honeymoon). I've also been very reluctant to compare the two on some levels due to them just being at different competitive levels.

However, I have to agree with every one of Jeff's points. Disney flat out OWNS them in just about everything. CP used to be the gold standard of ride operations. But just one trip to Disney blows that notion out of the water. Their ops are absolutely the tops in the game.

Case in point. When we rode Test Track, we decided to take the single rider line because it would save us time. I didn't need to go through a queue that would show me all the stuff I saw on a tour of Chrysler Headquarters a few years ago, so it wasn't a big deal. When we got to the front (and yes, we were wearing the honeymoon buttons and ears) the op gave us side-by-side seats so that we could ride together. It was completely un-expected, but its those little things that make the difference.

During that same trip, every cast member we passed wished us congratulations. Even the one who was fighting off a mob of people trying to get Hook's autograph as she escorted him around. It made US feel special to be there. I'm tempted to do our next trip on our anniversary just so we can say its a second honeymoon and get the pins again (not that they'd check).

Everywhere we turned in the House of Mouse felt like a good value to us. They have raised the bar and Cedar Point (in fact all of Cedar Fair) is falling way behind.

Also, as far as budget goes, it is VERY bad business practice (not to say it isn't done) to feed one part of a company with the revenues of another. That's how failing business units drag a whole company down.

I tend to agree with most of what Jeff says, but I am more concerned with the declining operations at Cedar Point than I am with the food prices.

Ten or fifteen years ago CP had probably the most outstanding operations in the industry, on par or better than Disney. That has steadily been slipping with restrictive rules and dumb policies that even manage to take some of the fun out of the experience. That's what has hurt the value for me. I don't really care that there are $3.00 sodas and other high priced food items, I'm not having as much fun on the rides because of bad operations and lower capacity. It's even annoying on slow days because of things like the stupid "grab your seat belt and pull up" thing they make every rider do on an individual basis on the Corkscrew. Talk about a waste of time! The ride was fine for 30 years, why ruin the capacity now?

As far as quality, I can't compare Disney because I've never been there. But, I have been to many top tier ski resorts, which in reality are just winter amusement parks. The difference in the quality of the hotel experience is miles above the CP resorts in almost every area.

And I'm not just talking about Vail or Aspen. You just have to travel about 4 hours east of Cedar Point to Holiday Valley. Quality in the buildings in everything from architecture and materials to bedding and service. A bartender even comes out to the hot tub to take drink orders. At a per night rate less then the CP resorts. Plus, at Holiday Valley you can purchase food or merchandise anywhere in the resort just by swiping your room key card. They are building another resort hotel with 4 star service which includes the ability to make dinner reservations, ski school reservations and to have the refrigerator in the room stocked with food and drinks prior to arrival at the time you make your reservations. When you drive up, a valet will take your car to heated underground parking.

If a ski resort that gets 500,000 guests a season can provide that kind of quality and service, I would think an amusement park with 3 million guests would be able to provide similar quality.

Captain Hawkeye, even though we know that the park reduced prices two seasons ago 1) they did not market it very well. I didn't know of one person who knew it until i told them. 2) even when you got into the park the prices were still outrageous. I'm shocked that Jeff thinks a buck and a quarter for a water is high. It's about right on with vending machines and convenient stores. I'm even more shocked that a captured market business would sell it at market price. Jeff must only buy his water bulk at Marc's ;)

I think if we all think back to some period of time we remember a park that was not only fun but what we thought was an incredible value. Somewhere in the 90's that was lost. But I remember when even if the service wasn't the fastest or the choices weren't the healtiest, the quality was great and the value was there. I look back on '88 with specal fondness because of all the things I lament about the park's current state today. This includes all of the intangibles like surroundings and employee attitudes.

And to claim that CP can't be compared to Disney for this reason or that is unfounded. They both are in the amusement industry. Period. And most people won't differentiate a 'theme' park from an 'amusement' park'. The real issue to me is that CP at one point in time was able to offer a product that was unique and had value beyond coasters. People used to actually compare CP favorably against the house of mouse. This includes good (if bad for you) food quality and selection; value for the dollar spent; great ambiance; happy and helpful employees; clean park; efficient ride ops; ride selection; and what seemed to be a great park culture.

It's almost as if this park is on the same slippery slope that Six Flags went down under the Premier group. Angry employees, annoyed guests. Nicle and diming your customers. Running to advust the staff levels for a 'slower than expected day'. Worring about EBIDA and per caps over other driving issues.

For the last five years or so people would complain about one thing or another, but say, "at least they kick butt on efficiency and cleanliness." Even that is being called into question now a days. We all knew that the run of the greatest park on Earth wouldn't last forever, but I was hoping for another park catching The Point rather than CP crashing and burning.

I couldn't agree more with Jeff.

Lets not forget the difference in parking lots too. After a storm the parking lot floods and floods bad. At Disney there is no problem and they make the parking lot idiot proof. There is one way in and one way out. At Cedar Point it could take well over 45 minutes to get out of the lot.

I live in Michigan and have worked for both parks. I must say that there is a huge difference between the two. I still work for Disney seasonally, meaning I show up a coulple days a year and work. For keeping that not only do I get in the the parks for free, but also I have the ability to bring in 3 guest, 6 different days/ year. At CP I got 4 tickets for an entire season. I will never work for Cedar Fair again, but will continue to return to Disney as long as they let me.

A few of my observations during the past few years:
PARKING: To me, it sends a very bad message upon entering the parking lot to have to fork out $10 for the honor of having your car littered all day by the birds. One might counter that you have to pay to park at a major sports venue, but in most of those cases (Cleveland/Detroit/Pittsburgh), you have other options that will get you to the stadiums/arenas that don't force you to pay the high prices for parking--You could even walk from a few blocks away if you desired.
Cedar Point does not have those alternative parking options, and I doubt the people living along the Chausse would appreciate random parking in their driveways or yards to circumvent the parking charges.... so from the time you enter the property, the message is there: Get ready to empty the wallet!

CLEAN BATHROOMS: Such a novel idea... and Cedar Point flunks here big time--Always a mess, water (and other things) on the floors constantly. I guess it's just easier to put a yellow "Caution: Wet Floor Sign" out, than it is for an employee to be in there with a mop on a regular basis. Who's bright idea was it to put that green stucco stuff on the walls of the remodeled restrooms?-- I bet that's fun to keep clean, and free of odors.

FOOD SERVICE: Long waits at the food stands IS poor customer service... PERIOD.
Kids (and even adults) visit an amusement park to RIDE rides... The LAST thing on their minds is eating.
A park that is trying to cater to families MUST have efficient food service--KIDS do not like to wait, in line 25 minutes, and parents DO not like constantly telling their kids to behave... and the people standing next to them in line grow uncomfortable, especially when the kids are trying to imitate helicopters to occupy the time spent waiting for food.
As for the parents, spending $8 on the "value menu" of stale and cold chicken nuggets, and half-cooked, or burnt French Fries and flat Pepsi... amounts to spending $50 for a family of 4, just for lunch...ouch!

Those are a few of my observations. Why am I mentioning those? I LOVE Cedar Point--I have been at least once, EVERY year since 1974, and will continue to visit! Just like everyone else here, I am very passionate about Cedar Point! I like to be able to speak great things about my favorite park--those that know me well enough, know that I can't keep my mouth shut about Cedar Point, and I expect my favorite park to SHINE at every possible moment! There is no doubt in my mind that I will probably be promoting Cedar Point until the day I die... but some things need serious attention NOW!

Pete said:
I tend to agree with most of what Jeff says, but I am more concerned with the declining operations at Cedar Point than I am with the food prices.

Ten or fifteen years ago CP had probably the most outstanding operations in the industry, on par or better than Disney. That has steadily been slipping with restrictive rules and dumb policies that even manage to take some of the fun out of the experience.

A few years ago, people seemed to think I was crazy when I said things were slipping. Now with major rides having their ridership down by 30% and all these dumb new policies and rules, people are starting to take notice. I agree with Pete. I used to go to CP KNOWING I was going to have a good time and be put on rides as quickly as possible nomatter how busy it was. That just simply isn't true anymore and I've actually been embarrassed to bring friends there a couple times. And for goodness sake I still don't talk to anyone about CP without them telling me how Dragster was broken when they were there. :)

In any service industry, your operations are a big part of your marketing. If people have a good experience, they might tell others. If people have a bad experience, they will almost certainly tell others. I think CP has lost sight of this.

When I was younger and went to Cedar Point with my parents we would always, ALWAYS bring a picnic lunch at eat it either in a pavillon (sp?) or go back to the car and eat it in the parking lot. Now that my parents are older and I have my own family we too bring our own lunches. My mom prepares sub sandwiches for us (nothing like a mom made sandwich!) and we bring chips and beverages. Total cost? probably $15. Buying the same in the park? Probably $50. The only items we buy in the park are MAYBE a bottle of water, which we fill up at the water fountains when we empty it, and an ice cream cone or something similiar.

I realize that doing it this way is the exception rather than the rule but I am also the kind of person that goes to a sporting event to watch the game. Not drink, eat, buy souvenirs and drink some more. We always stop and eat before such an event as well.

I guess I'm cheap.