No 2005 Coaster?

That's exactly what my dad heard, that Dick Kinzel wanted to go out with a bang. Oh yeah, and it was going to go across the Dragster.

Hey I just thought of something. Maybe we'll build a dueling Floorless and it would be the tallest floorless of its kind. It would also be cool to see it racing, I like that idea as well.

What happened to the B&M 4D?

I actually don't want another coaster at the park this year. I feel the park needs to still work on controlling the operation of their new rides and have it down to a science before taking another step and taking more projects into their hands. What I would prefer is an assorted variety of Huss Giants Scattered through out the park with minimal theming and intimidating names. Seriously.

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Shawn Meyer said:
Maybe we'll build a dueling Floorless

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You're going to help CP and B&M out on this one? That's cool. :)

Nah, he said dueling floorless...that's way off! ;)

No I think I am helping Cedar Point out.....lol.

What's wrong with a Dueling Floorless? I mean especially if it races. It would be like Gemini only more thrilling.

and maybe it could have interlocking loops and interlocking corkscrews!!!!!

this is startin' to sound kinda cool...:) *** Edited 8/23/2004 7:16:32 PM UTC by cotton_eye_joe92***

I hope you guys are not serious about a racing floorless. Why would they want another racing coaster?

I suspect that if there was going to be a new coaster next year you would already have seen some land clearing or other rides being moved around.

Racing and dueling coasters are totally different. Check out lightning racer for a view of a dueling coaster. I wouldn't mind one of those.

If they installed a dueling coaster (floorless baby!) would it count as 2 coasters? A dueling one would be sweet, Fire vs. Ice at Islands of Adventure was amazing! Imagine what CP's would be like!

Edit:opps.. now i feel really dumb, my mistake *** Edited 8/23/2004 7:50:56 PM UTC by Shawn Steckroth***

I tend to disagree Chief Wahoo. We saw how quickly they erected the 420 foot tower of Dragster. how long did the clearing of land and construction take? just over 5 months? Half of the off-season was spent installing wiring and testing and tweaking Dragster.

If they wanted I'm sure that the park could wait until one of the last HalloWeekends to break ground and still have time to spare before opening weekend. They wouldn't need as much time to test a ride that has a traditional lift hill.

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Shawn Steckroth said:
If they installed a dueling coaster (floorless baby!) would it count as 2 coasters? A dueling one would be sweet, Fire vs. Ice at Disney was amazing! Imagine what CP's would be like!

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Umm. Dueling Dragons are located at Islands of Adventure, NOT Disney.

I know CP is willing to dish out the cash, but after putting $25 million into TTD (which, mind you, tied MF as CP's largest single investment ever) I doubt you'd see such an expensive project. I'd estimate a dueling floorless at $25-$30 million, and that just seems like way too much money with WT, TTD, and Castaway Bay in consecutive years.

This small analyses, of course, is assuming CP would even consider such an installation as a dueling floorless for reasons other than finances.

That is a good observation mantis_man, but what if you think about Wicked Twister and Dragster as more of a package deal than two separate capital investments. They were built in back to back years (with the largest footers of Dragster being poured during the construction of Wicked Twister). If Dragster had been built before Wicked Twister, I would imagine that it would have scared away some would-be riders had there not been a tamer launched coaster to ride first. If you combine these two coasters, the capital investment price tag comes to 34 million dollars.

In 2000 they invested 25 million dollars on Millennium Force and followed it up with the addition of Lighthouse Point in 2001. Then they went back to back years with WT and Dragster. To follow up these coasters they installed phase 2 of Lighthouse Point and Castaway Bay. It seems that whenever they aren't building new places for people to stay at the park, they are building rides to attract people to the park. This coming year they are going to try to attract more people to the park, and it doesn't seem to me that a flat ride alone would accomplish that goal. In my opinion the addition of a dueling B&M isn't out of the question from a capital investment point of view.

Also, many of the elements within Dueling Dragons seemed to work so well because of the fly by effects and near misses that could be achieved with the inverted design. I just don't think that it would be as exciting if it was a floorless design. This is why I believe that Cedar Point will get a pair of dueling flyers. Think of how unique the experience would be.

I hope they never remove wwl, its the only water ride where you dont have to ring your clothes out after riding.

If they did remove it, I think it should be replaced with anether log flume type ride.

Maybe they'll build the new ride and hide it the same way they did with White Water Landing. I think it would be cool to hide a Floorless in the woods. I even have the perfect name for that. I'd name it Grass Hopper. I think a floorless back there would attract a lot more people back in that area. There hasn't been too much added back there since Snake River Falls was built in 1993, and before that was Mean Streak. That was built in 1991. So nothing has really gone in that area in a while. Yeah it would upset me to see White Water go because it is a nice relaxing ride, but for think about the future.

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Maniaman said:

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alwaysdreamin said:
Someone who works at CP told my dad this yesterday.

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Was it the lemon chill guy?

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Dont know about you guys, but I can hardly understand the Lemon Chill guy! ;) *** Edited 8/24/2004 4:21:09 AM UTC by cheese_on_a_stick***

Well, I combined my responses into 1 big message. These are my views, take them or leave them, but I'm not out to insult or alienate anyone!.

Jeff

"The removal of the Swan Boats was to make room for a 200 mph, 1,200-foot tall roller
coaster named Atom Smasher. I thought everyone knew that. I mean, why else would they
remove the Swan boats?"

LMAO!!!

Vanessa

"But a spinning wild mouse doesn't have very good capacity. Look at Exterminator at Kennywood."

Very true...but remember, Exterminator (great ride, BTW) is a Reverchon. I can't put my finger on it, but none of the Reverchon spinning wild mouse coasters have decent capacity and ALWAYS have HORRIBLE wait times. I will note that the Maurer Sohne spinning "mice" seem to run more efficiently with shorter wait times. Spinning Dragons at Waldameer is a testament to that. Better/more efficient restraint system on the Maurer's? Hard to say. Could just be a fluke, but something I've noticed.

TTD is sinking too!!

"I think the wildcard is Geauga Lake.
Cedar Fair has clearly stated GL won't be the park Six Flags was promoting. It's destined to become a "family" park geared toward "single day" visits. They spent $145 million to acquire it, so don't expect them to sit back and wait forever for the payback. This transformation will almost certainly take place in 2005. How much does it cost to turn GL into what they envision? $10M? $20M? How quickly will they do it? What effect will this "capital drain" have on "premier" parks like Cedar Point? Is it enough to delay a new "major attraction" a year (or two?) My opinion is that GL will get more than its fair share of money, at the expense of other Cedar Fair parks. No executive wants to see their new acquisition become a loser, so expect Kinzel to "take care" of GL in 2005."

No way in hell. New rides or a new coaster, yeah, I could see something on the family-scale
there even for 2005 (spinning mouse, standard mouse, Wave swinger or other flat ride, etc). But something major? Highly unlikely. Why? There's not a snowball's chance in hell that CF will allow GL to even *HINT* at being like CP. CP's their baby...their
goldmine, the mothership of all the CF parks. Will they not build another major coaster there?
Of course they will, but not for a few years. (Rumors I heard this year are a B&M stand-up...*BS,
there's one an hour away at CP, or a B&M hyper...possible but probably not for a few years and
GL has height/noise restrictions). So you're probably wondering why CF bought GL from Six Flags? Simple: to get rid of the competition. The old business adage, if you can't beat 'em, buy 'em. The price was right (due to Six Flags trying to prevent bankrupcy) for the offering and it made sense to buy it. Plus, it has twice the land of the Point. But you know what?
I wouldn't be surprised if CF sold off the old SeaWorld side of the park to a developer! Do you have any idea what that land is worth!?

AND, with GL having an excellent B&M floorless, I'd be surprised if CP builds one. Popular, yes. But if I were Cedar Fair, I'd try and keep my 2 close sister parks "original" with each offering different rides and then try to tie the 2 together (as in a resort package, ie: 1 day at GL and 2 days @CP/Castaway Bay). Jeff mentioned earlier why would they (CP) build an impulse coaster when there's one an hour away. Good point, but remember, WT's a unique, "custom" double-twist impulse...a slight bit different than the off-the-shelf model installed @ GL. Who knows? Maybe a floorless will find its way there someday?

CedarPtRage

"During a visit to Cedar Point in May, an operator from Wave Swinger told me a rumor about
a new coaster for next year. I'm not saying that I believe the rumor, but you never know.
He told me that they are taking out White Water Landing and the Antique Cars to make room
for this coaster. hmmm...maybe thats why Swan Boats is gone....but anyways...back in 2002
a game attendent told me a rumor about a new coaster that was going to be the following
year, I didn't believe it, but it was,and exactly how he told it(Top Thrill Dragster) too.
So maybe I should start to trust these guys with the rumors?"

100% in agreement. Most of the time they don't know jack, but sometimes they do. While you can't run to the presses with what they say as fact, you can't always discount it either. With the most definite NDA's that CP has to issue about their upcoming rides, there's leaks here and there.

CP_Bound

"As for the possible removal of WWL...why not? It's capacity is horrible, there are no
seatbelts in the boats and they still allow hand held infants onto the ride. In my opinion,
with as much of a safety-anal park as CP is, it boggles my mind how they never changed
these policies on this ride. My only conclusion would be that they are removing it shortly."

Not necessarily. There's no seatbelts on the racing carousel either and that thing absoultely
FLIES!! It runs right now at 14 rpm, but was designed to be run at 28 rpms. Don't believe
me? Read the info around the ride and ask the ops. The specs are posted on the control
panel. You think CF will ever remove it? HELL NO!! There's only like 2 of them in existence!
It's a popular family ride, very unique, with no way to easily install seatbelts without wrecking
the horses (that I can see, I'm an Air Traffic Controller, not an engineer).

Kylepark

"It was 4 years between Mantis and MF."

Yes, but Power Tower opened in '98. That was a minimum of a $10 million investment.
How do I know? Valleyfair (another CF park in Shakopee, MN...my old "local park") opened theirs in 2000, which is only a 3 tower ride (of comparable
size) and cost $10 mil. Kinzel has gone on record saying a new major ride is needed at the Point every 2 years. But he said a major "ride," not a "coaster." Power Tower is most definitely a major ride!

JuggaLotus

"Apparently not since they need to be fixed. I will admit that the rides are awesome
(especially back seat on WT's second train) but what's the point of being able to build a
great ride if it never works. I admit rides will have problems, but I think its time to go
to a designer other than Intamin."

Second train? There's only 1 train on WT.

Intamin and B&M are undisputedly the best steel coaster mfg'ers. I think Intamin is being far more innovative recently than B&M. Yes, Intamin coasters tend to have growing pains but they usually work themselves out. B&M's tend to be more reliable. Why? They're so simple! A chain lift, basic trains, etc. Their flyers have had a few hiccups here and there, but nothing too serious. Other than that, I haven't seen anything real exciting come out of B&M recently, except the inverted *12 years ago* (the floorless is just a sit-down looper with open seats...great ride, simple concept), though I love their rides. I've heard rumors of the next 2 coasters B&M are "supposedly" working on, but until I see the prototypes built at a park, I won't get any more excited than that.

And as much as I like Intamin rocket coasters, I think there's problems that need to be worked out. Dragster's just a technological nightmare...I'm not surprised it's got as many problems as it does. But Intamin Rocket construction doesn't seem to be slowing...Six Flags Great Adventure is building one next year (Intamin Rocket track is on site), Thorpe Park in England's already announced one for 2006
and there's a few other parks in Europe that have expressed an interest. Perhaps the bugs
will finally be worked out in these later models?

"Assuming does nothing but make people seem dumber when the truth comes out."

Good point, but it sure is fun to speculate, isn't it?

"Definitely Am I going to waste time getting my hopes up when I would much rather see them build a hyper at Michigan Adventure? No"

They're not building anything major at MI until they get the sewage dispute settled with the city of Muskegon. The park is too far away from the actual city (something like 8 miles if I remember correctly) and the cost of either tying into city sewage (unlikely) or building adequate sewage removal/treatment near the park is extremely high...something neither Cedar Fair nor the City of Muskegon wants to pay. Building a major new coaster there would draw large crowds (due to its location and lack of "thrilling" rides) and overcome the limited sewage capabilities they have. I know,
it sounds stupid, but CF cancelled their 2003 coaster due to this issue. Don't believe me? Do a Google search...the info's out there (news articles, etc.) That's how I found out.

D.A. Rossi

"I've said it before and I'll say it agian, the park likely makes more money per capita
from families of four, than groups of four coaster geeks."

YES YES YES!!! I wouldn't be surprised if the coaster craze dies down here in the next few years (Cedar Point being an exception). The parks are starting to realize that plopping a new coaster down in an unused portion of a parking lot doesn't always mean record crowds and profits. This is a major reason why Six Flags is desperately trying to fight bankrupcy (and sold its European parks, along with the former Worlds of Adventure to Cedar Fair). Paramount is finally building its first major coaster (Italian Job Stunt Track) in Kings Island since Son of Beast in 2000. What have they been building since? Family-style rides and a water park! Same goes for Canada's Wonderland. Also, CP's building a new year-round indoor FAMILY waterpark for 2004, along with expanding the resort-side of the park and adding to the existing Soak City. Why? Families, baby! And that means some serious cha-ching...to pay for their next major coaster for us coaster nuts!

My good buddy works for CP as a "silver tag" (full-time management employee...not upper-level,
but mid-level). He told me about WT and Dragster before they were announced or construction
started. He's told me HE doesn't even know what the 2006/2006 coaster will be, despite the rampant
rumors of a B&M flyer. What he did tell me was that he's heard a water coaster is in the works, nothing confirmed. He doesn't know if it will be a Setpoint SwingThing (ala Rollersoaker at Hersheypark) or something more like a Mack/Premiere like the former Buzzsaw Falls at Silver Dollar City. He said he's heard nothing about WWL being removed, but said a new coaster in Frontiertown is needed to draw people from the over-packed front midway section of the park into the nearly deserted Frontiertown to balance crowds. This will likely require removal of the Frontiertown Antique Autos (they already have 2 at the front). His speculation was that if WWL is removed, it will be replaced by a family ride (likely water-based). Let's face it folks: major coasters draw crowds, but right now the money's being focused on families...they generate more money than coaster enthusiasts. You can argue with me all you want, but look at the industry: it's a shift they're all starting to make. What my buddy said about this information could be BS...even he said CP's being even more quiet than usual about the next 2-3 seasons (only the top-level brass know for sure). But rest assured: whatever they build will be wonderful. Addition of a few modern flat-rides (be they Huss Giants, Zamperla, Chance, whatever) will be a welcome addition to CP. Why? They attract families and they're comparably cheap to build. For the cost of WT, you could build at least 3 Huss Giants. 3 rides for the cost of one? Looks like a bigger expansion than a single coaster to the average park-goer (and not park/coaster junkies like us). 3 new rides to ride!! Looks good to your average teen who visits the park once a year during a school trip!

Also, something I saw in one of the later postings was that if there was a new coaster going in there'd probably be some sort of dirt work going on by now. I kind of agree on that. HersheyPark announced Storm Runner last August. But construction was going by mid/late Sept. The park was still open by then. But a new flat ride? They could easily build that after the park closed for the season and have it ready for next May. They could build several flat rides and move existing ones to new locations within a few months between season's end and next years opening.

Anyway, this is a great thread for a great park. Who cares if we're all made to be fools when CP opens 2 new major coaster the same year in '08? (Sarcasm, folks, not a new rumor.) If we're wrong, we're wrong! Six Flags Worlds of Adventure was supposedly getting a new B&M hypercoaster for the '04 season, since the park had been "saving" for it for the past 3 years. Where's the coaster? Hey, come to think of it, where's the park?

Take care and keep on speculatin'! *** Edited 8/24/2004 2:59:59 PM UTC by Top Thrill ATC***