Cedar Point 2012

djDaemon said:

That may explain why you're in the minority with an opposing argument. I'm pretty sure you're the only one talking about just the petting zoo. I was under the impression that this discussion was much broader than that. And looking over the other comments confirms this.

Is all that really necessary? If you can't make your point without being snarky, perhaps it's best if you just don't participate.

Absolutely. Positively. Yes.

Any company worth a dang does exhaustive comparisons to their competitors. It's called benchmarking, and it's absolutely a vital method if you want to build a better widget (or service) than the other guys.

I may be in the minority on an enthusiast board, but not with the paying public and quite frankly, I don't care what the whole thread is about. I'm typing and talking about the petting zoo. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not hard to figure out.

If you don't like snark, you might want to look in the mirror. If you really can't handle it, maybe you should learn to comprehend what is in front of you instead of making things up as you go along to suit your argument and it won't happen to you. Just a thought.

Honda does not benchmark Bentley. Their not even in the same market and they don't even make the same product. High level luxury and economy cars are not benchmarking each other.

I knew you would make something up to make it seem like what you wrote is correct.

PrawoJazdy said:
I'm not one of the people that believe anything other than a roller coaster is a waste of time. However, no one would care except for the enthusiasts on this board if it went away. This hive mind can make all the claims they want, the point is, they're not the families spending money every day at the park. The families will continue to spend even if they remove one petting zoo. It's nonsense to think it will make any difference.

You say you won't fly across the country for a water park that you have close to home, but you will for a petting zoo? They don't have petting zoos on the west coast?

When has Cedar Fair claimed Cedar Point is a family park? They have not, and they have not added a ride package and made the claim. It seems you're the one making the claim and not Cedar Fair.

I dont think Jeff said he was gonna fly across country for a petting zoo. I think what he means is, thats one of the few things the family can do together at CP. And I agree. As I said before, the petting zoo adds charm to the park and is a nice distraction.

CP is a resort. They want people to come and stay a weekend at one of their resorts. They want them to come and eat their food and buy their merchandise. I will be graduating from college soon and probably will be married in the near future. My job will most likely take me to Virginia or Maryland. Looking at the parks lineup now, I have no reason to take my kids to CP until they are at least 48 inches. Not enough things for the family to do together. And I'm not paying money to travel, get a room, get tickets, get food, when there isnt enough to do. I'm more interested in visiting KD or BGW and then saving my money for Disney.

And this is from a coaster guy. I'd love for them to keep adding thrill rides. But I also think they need to focus on the little things too.

I agree that it's ridiculous to compare CP to Disney in terms of attraction quality, so let's move on there. We're talking about a seasonal amusement park in a farm town, away from everything in Ohio, versus Disney, one of the highest grossing companies in the U.S...their year-round park in a top tourist destination. Disney's budget allows them to install attractions that cost 100's of millions of dollars. Cedar Point's budget allows a big $20 million attraction every several years.

Prawojazdy, maybe Cedar Point was asking FB posters to vote Cedar Point as the best park vs. Disney on a personal level? Someone could choose CP as their favorite park over Disney for the fact that they prefer thrills over dark rides...or because CP holds a special nostalgic place in their heart. I can see why many would take this question the wrong way and flame up FB though...

Cedar Point is in a sticky situation. They've marketed and invested in the park as a thrill park - the roller coaster capital of the world, and they've done a great job making a name. I mean, think about it...a farm town in Ohio is being voted best park on the planet and getting worldwide recognition. Should they start trying to transform it into a family park, the same market as Disney, they risk building attractions of mediocrity in comparison.

This is why I feel Cedar Point is avoiding building that dark ride that people want. With a $10 million budget, how can Cedar Point build anything compelling when people will be ready to compare it to $500+ million attractions like the new Harry Potter ride? And this could be why Shoot the Rapids feels so mediocre as a family attraction...it had 1/10th or less of the budget of Splash Mountain.

I think Cedar Point has found their niche as a roller coaster and thrill park, and they should continue focusing on being the best. Teens and non-family adults sure know how to spend money elsewhere, so CP should focus on how to get that money. So, my approach isn't "Families spend more money, so let's convert CP into a family park." It's "Those teens and single adults are not spending as much money as families...let's figure out how to get them to spend in our park."

Edit: Also need to add that I'm saying that Cedar Point is primarily a thrill / roller coaster park - not primarily a family park. It's definitely important to have activities for childen / families, so that they can one day graduate to CP as a thrill park. I think they're already covered there though. Are kids really that picky? I haven't seen an upset one in Planet Snoopy yet... Adults are the picky ones, so let's focus on those thrill rides.

Exactly. We live in Louisville (Ohio), so we're just under 2 hours from CP. If we still lived in Columbus, though, where we did 3 years ago, I can guarantee you that we would be visiting KI more, and CP less. If we lived in Virginia, forget about it. Until our daughters are both 48 inches, there is not much draw to go to Cedar Point as a family (yes, we're one of those paying families).

The only reason we frequent it as much as we do is because of proximity.

PrawoJazdy said:
...I don't care what the whole thread is about. I'm typing and talking about the petting zoo.

OK, great. So why are you involved in a conversation that's not about the petting zoo? :)

Honda does not benchmark Bentley. Their not even in the same market and they don't even make the same product. High level luxury and economy cars are not benchmarking each other.

Speaking from within the auto industry, I have to disagree. Companies benchmark other companies. This is not a foreign or new concept.

And the last I checked, both Bentley and Honda do manufacture the same product - vehicles.

Speaking as a former Honda executive and current Maybach owner, we at Honda never benchmarked Bentley and no we never made the same product. Bentley makes high end luxury vehicles that cost $100,000 or more. Honda doesn't have a car over $50K. Quit splitting hairs.

Ffej said:

Prawojazdy, maybe Cedar Point was asking FB posters to vote Cedar Point as the best park vs. Disney on a personal level? Someone could choose CP as their favorite park over Disney for the fact that they prefer thrills over dark rides...or because CP holds a special nostalgic place in their heart. I can see why many would take this question the wrong way and flame up FB though...

Actually it was a publication poll that Cedar Point linked to. I think it was from WSJ or Forbes. The question was which one is a better overall value. I believe many would choose Cedar Point as well, but this was definitely not a personal feeling kind of poll. The winner was Disney with their free dining specials etc that made Disney a better overall value for a full week.

OK, so Honda doesn't benchmark that particular brand, according to you. But the point is that benchmarking is common, and critical if you plan to compete. And increasingly, auto companies are benchmarking up-market. Chrysler is now benchmarking themselves against Cadillac, for example (and their recent product shows it). And I'd wager that most would agree that a Caddy:Chrysler comparison is as apples:oranges as is Disney:Cedar Fair.

Getting back out of the weeds...
CF certainly should be benchmarking themselves against the competition, including Disney, and it wouldn't be "lazy" or "embarrassing" to do so. Frankly, I question why a former auto executive would make such a suggestion.

We benchmarked who we competed with like Chevrolet and Toyota to do it better. We didn't waste our time chasing pipe dreams where our customers wouldn't care anyway. We wouldn't drop a 32 speaker Harmon Kardon into a Civic, we wouldn't try and put magnet dampening suspensions in a Civic either.

Chrysler & Cadillac? Obvious easy comparison. Neither is high end luxury and both go after the value minded luxury buyer. They're one in the same.

Compare Buzz Lighyear to Boo Blasters at Kings Island. Not even close and frankly, the result to someone who has been on both, is sad. Highlighters do not replace proper lighting and the sound effects sounded tinny and terrible. Cedar Fair can stick with what they know and that kind of ride is not it.

There you go putting words in my mouth again. Kindly show me where you saw that I wrote benchmarking in general is lazy and embarrassing or suggested it. Thats like the fifth time you've done that and 2nd time today.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Where+can+I+take+reading+comprehension+classes%3F

I think when it comes to water parks, soak city needs to get a funnel water slide like liquid lightning at wildwater kingdom. those are really enjoyable and thrilling.

a lot of cedar fair water parks have one, not all, but it would make a great addition to SC.

Or....the blue swirl slide at kalahari. :) IMO

I finally got on the Funnel at King's Island. It was pretty awesome. scared the hell out of Mrs. Jazdy. I think they could benefit from a major overhaul at Soak City and this should not be overlooked.

You mean Boomerang Bay? Or you went to KI and think that Soak City at CP should get an overhaul after seeing BB?

PrawoJazdy said:
There you go putting words in my mouth again. Kindly show me where you saw that I wrote benchmarking in general is lazy and embarrassing or suggested it.

Link

PrawoJazdy said:
Why even bother comparing Cedar Point to anything Disney? Thats taking the lazy route. Cedar Point is not and will never be Disney. Its ridiculous to even make the claim...

It was actually embarrassing. As embarrassing as relating the two parks together.

Link

PrawoJazdy said:
...comparing Cedar Point to Disney is lazy.

It was embarrassing for Cedar Point to try and ask its Facebook community...

If you want to know whats embarrassing about comparing the business strategies of Cedar Fair to Disney...

All that... umm, quoted, I get your position - CF and Disney aren't in the same league, so CF shouldn't make strides to compete with them, ever (strides such as adding/keeping petting farm type attractions). I think that's an insane business strategy.

Since we've got that cleared up, let's save the board from the personal comments and unnecessary insults you're throwing my way and just agree to disagree.

PrawoJazdy said:
When has Cedar Fair claimed Cedar Point is a family park? They have not, and they have not added a ride package and made the claim. It seems you're the one making the claim and not Cedar Fair.

From CP:

The same smiles that are sure to be echoed at Cedar Point in the future, as Lake Erie's summertime tradition continues with the very best in family fun and excitement.

If you want more, find the video we shot with John Hildebrandt, the park GM, about building Planet Snoopy for families. Not only does the park self-identify as a family attraction, it must in order to continue to build a sustainable business.

And I agree with Brandon. No need to be a dick with your reading comprehension comments.

PrawoJazdy said:We benchmarked who we competed with like Chevrolet and Toyota to do it better. We didn't waste our time chasing pipe dreams where our customers wouldn't care anyway.

I think the point of the argument is that Cedar Point is much closer in product to Disney then what Honda makes compared to Bentley. It would be stupid for Honda, or most main stream car companies, to benchmark their product against Bentley.

CP and Disney DO have similar products, at much closer price points than a 15K Civic and and 100K Bentley.I don't think this is about an either/or type thing. No one is suggesting getting rid of coasters. I personally love coasters and thrill rides. But for the future growth and health of the park, adding family attractions that the whole family can enjoy together will increase attendance. They used to have it, it doesn't matter if an attraction costs less than 100 million, they were enjoyable attractions that entertained everyone in the family. People do notice and a certain demograhic did stop coming to the park. Many people call the park a "Coaster Park" instead of an "Amusement Park" now. They need to become an "Amusement Park" again and bring the demographic back that they lost.

And while they are at it, bring entertainment like beach Tiki bars and music to the resorts. People will stay longer and some would even come ONLY for the resorts if they could establish some type of cruise ship like atmosphere at the resorts to keep people entertained. With the location CP has, it doesn't always have to be about rides, it could be about sun, sand, drinks and music also.

PS: I'm using the plain text editor and I always have to edit after posting to get the paragraphs back.

If you have followed the company at all over the past 5-10 years you will know that Cedar Fair is TRYING to make the park about families...and not just thrillsters. Planet Snoopy, Snoopy themed rooms at Breakers Tower, kid friendly ice shows to name a few things.

Event the newer rides were supposed to be "family friendly" and, to a degree they are. But, there aren't a lot of kids under, say, 8 years old that are riding Maverick and I doubt many of them will be getting on Wind Seeker. Not many are likely getting on Shoot the Rapids either.

Kinzel himself has stated in the past that they want to market more aggressively to the "family" demographic but, at least from an attraction standpoint, I just don't think they have figured it out yet and maybe the earlier post about not wanting to spend the money to compete with the obvious comparisons to Disney is not that far fetched. But, pleny of other "smaller" parks out there have quality indoor rides that don't cost the $100 million plus that Universal and Disney spend on the big boys.

Getting rid of the pet farm wouldn't be a singular crucial blow to the park. But, it would be yet another example of the company saying one thing yet doing another.

We are starting to follow Legoland Florida pretty closely and my children (ages 8 and 5) have been asking a LOT of questions about the park, when we are going, etc. Neither of them has said one word about the roller coasters. But, having read the information for myself I can see that there will be plenty for us all to do together and I can see that it will be a good "family" vacation.

I enjoyed Cedar Point as a teen and as an older adult pre-children but my trips there, at least to this point since having kids, have not been all that engaging. Either we are splitting up to ride rides or we are watching the kids in one of the kiddie areas. There are only so many "transportation rides" (sky ride, cars, train, boat) to amuse us all at once.

Cedar Fair/Point needs to get more creative with family rides and that is something that is a skill set the current CEO does not have in his arsenal.

Jeff said:

If you want more, find the video we shot with John Hildebrandt, the park GM, about building Planet Snoopy for families. Not only does the park self-identify as a family attraction, it must in order to continue to build a sustainable business.

And I agree with Brandon. No need to be a dick with your reading comprehension comments.

Does not translate to say that they are family park. Just that they offer something for everyone. Try again.

And if Brandon doesn't like it, he should practice offering the same courtesy he expects. I'm not here to offer sunshine and roses to someone who cannot quote someone without screwing it up to suit their argument.

djDaemon said:

All that... umm, quoted, I get your position - CF and Disney aren't in the same league, so CF shouldn't make strides to compete with them, ever (strides such as adding/keeping petting farm type attractions). I think that's an insane business strategy.

Since we've got that cleared up, let's save the board from the personal comments and unnecessary insults you're throwing my way and just agree to disagree.

Thats not me talking about benchmarking in general.

I'm glad you think that's insane. Your remarks would run a place a Cedar Point into the ground and drain them of every dollar.

As I told Jeff, I think you should take your own advice. You are the epitome of snarky comments around here. Just because you can't take your own medicine doesn't mean you can whine about it.

Wahoo, you make some good points, but I'm curious what you feel would be an affordable attraction that everyone could collectively ride or experience together as families?

Pete, when you say that Cedar Point used to have family attractions, what were you referring to in particular? I'm thinking you're referring to dark rides / attractions like Pirate Ride, Earthquake, Funhouse?

I don't want to speak for Pete, but it's not just actual family rides, Ffej, but also the family attractions. Stuff like Jungle Larry's, PWE (which is a neutered shell of its former self), Hobo Band, etc., along with the loss of actual family rides like those you mention.