Cedar Point 2012

DJ, I agree with that, but they have replaced some of those with attractions like Snoopy on Ice and All Wheels Extreme. They can add more, but I'm sure CP's debate is the cost.

For example, we can all see the budget that Cedar Fair parks have for a dark ride: Boo Blasters on Boo Hill. And those were only updated because they had current ride platforms in place.

So, would people wanting family attractions be happy if instead of a $25 million coaster for 2012, we got Boo Blasters on Boo Hill or something in the same cost realm? That's the question I'm sure CP execs struggle with.

Ffej said:
So, would people wanting family attractions be happy if instead of a $25 million coaster for 2012, we got Boo Blasters on Boo Hill or something in the same cost realm?

Absolutely. I'd wager that a lot of families, especially those with patriarchs who grew up going to CP, would love to see the same "coaster wars" enthusiasm put toward family attractions. Especially since the "coaster wars" mentality has been one of diminishing returns in recent years, especially at CP.

That's the question I'm sure CP execs struggle with.

Well, I'm sure one exec struggles with it, but he struggles with a lot of things, like not being a hindrance to the company's success.

djDaemon said:I don't want to speak for Pete, but it's not just actual family rides, Ffej, but also the family attractions. Stuff like Jungle Larry's, PWE (which is a neutered shell of its former self), Hobo Band, etc., along with the loss of actual family rides like those you mention.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm talking about. You could spend a long chunk of time in Jungle Larry's alone if you looked at all the zoo animals, took in a tiger show and listened to one of the educational lectures they used to have.

Ffej said:DJ, I agree with that, but they have replaced some of those with attractions like Snoopy on Ice and All Wheels Extreme. They can add more, but I'm sure CP's debate is the cost.

Snoopy on Ice did replace IMAX and All Wheels Extreme replaced the Dolphin show, which was much better then All Wheels IMHO. They lost the Sealand Aquarium, Jungle Larry Safari (zoo, tiger show and educational lectures), Hobo Band, Beach Band, Hollywood Wax Museum, the country music show amphitheater, Upside Down Fun House, Pirate Ride, Earthquake Ride, the real PWE (Western Cruise), Frontier Lift, many of the arts and crafts demonstrations on Frontier Trail, Fort Sandusky (used to be able to explore), Mill Race and the Stage Coach Ride. I won't mention White Water Landing because Shoot-The-Rapids arguably replace it. Taking in ONLY the lost things would actually make for a nice day at the park for many families.

I still wonder though...

After Raptor, the park really had a good coaster line up relative to other parks, and the park was experiencing peak attendance. Many would argue that this is when CP became coaster-obsessed and went on a decade+ of coaster wars, and that this is when Cedar Point was starting to lose touch with the family.

So, let's say they went on a family attraction building rampage instead. Mantis was a nightly fireworks show. Power Tower was a fun house. Millenium Force was Pirate Ride: Revenge. Wicked Twister was Disaster Transport re-theme. Top Thrill Dragster was Boo Blasters on Boo Hill. Maverick was an updated flume ride. And then Skyhawk & Max Air were a new Jungle Larry's show.

Would the park be in a better position today without Mantis, Power Tower, Millenium Force, Wicked Twister, Skyhawk, Max Air, Top Thrill Dragster, and Maverick? Or would it have slowly become a forgettable Ohio park relative to others today?

It's easy to criticize Kinzel, but I'm not sure if I'd be on these forums today if it wasn't for CP's collection of coasters & thrill rides.

Out of the rides you mentioned, let's say they didn't build Mantis, Power Tower and Skyhawk and instead built family attractions with a similar budget. Plus, they could have kept some of the attractions that were taken away. I think the park would have a better balance and probably better attendance.

Ffej said:
So, let's say they went on a family attraction building rampage instead. Mantis was a nightly fireworks show. Power Tower was a fun house. Millenium Force was Pirate Ride: Revenge. Wicked Twister was Disaster Transport re-theme. Top Thrill Dragster was Boo Blasters on Boo Hill. Maverick was an updated flume ride. And then Skyhawk & Max Air were a new Jungle Larry's show.

See, now you're swinging too far in the other direction, in my opinion. The best result doesn't likely come from pandering to one demographic or the other, but instead striking a balance in order to attract the largest crowd with the deepest pockets.

I think Pete did strike a balance. I don't think Cedar Point would be a lesser park without Mantis, Power Tower or Skyhawk. The other thing one must consider, to a certain degree, is space and capacity. I'm not sure what else could have been put on the Power Tower site that would have had a measurable impact on attendance and revenue. And, it does eat some people off the midway.

I think there are any of a number of opportunities for an indoor ride themed to Peanuts that could be enjoyable for the whole family. Heck, who isn't familiar with Peanuts?

I think there is room for another more passive water ride for the whole family. Dollywood put in a water wars type attraction that is a good example (albeit it a lower capacity attraction).

I'm sure a lot of you have heard of the new Cheeta Hunt roller coaster in tampa... Doesn't that have an area where you can look at the animals and learn about them off ride? If it does, I would consider that a family attraction and a thrill ride combined into one.

What if CP did something like that? They aren't big on theming though... but if they were able to make a thrilling ride for the thrill seakers while at the same time, the area surrounding the ride can make families happy.

Let's take Disney World for example. Expedition Everest isn't the tallest, fastest, most inversion filled roller coaster. Kids of all ages can ride it without fear. It suits families because there is a great story behind the ride.

CP would never be able to pull off the theming of something like that, but if they would put in the effort, I'm sure they can do a decent job.

SSL488 said:
...if they were able to make a thrilling ride for the thrill seakers while at the same time, the area surrounding the ride can make families happy.

They sort of did that with TTD. And surprisingly (to me, anyway), it stays pretty busy over there with lots of folks, young and old, enjoying watching trains launch. That was a nice touch by the park, and I wish they'd do more of that, albeit on a much larger, more interactive scale than the TTD area.

Of course, the TTD viewing area is relatively dirt-cheap, so that probably explains why it exists. :)

Miss_Maverick07 said:
I think when it comes to water parks, soak city needs to get a funnel water slide like liquid lightning at wildwater kingdom.

I completely agree we were actually talking about this over the weekend... From what the CEO said they plan on selling G. Lake. And KI has B. bay. so a major upgrade to the water park is past due.

Chief Wahoo said:

I think there is room for another more passive water ride for the whole family. Dollywood put in a water wars type attraction that is a good example (albeit it a lower capacity attraction).

Have you been on that or its twin at Silver Dollar City? Not a very passive water ride. I know my 5 year old did not really appreciate getting blasted in the face with the guns. Not sure how many grandparents like getting drenched either. We certainly did not think of this as a family attraction.

I think that is one of the issues. I look at Cedar Point and see a park with a lot of family rides/attractions (that I have ridden with 3 generations of folks in my family and that I see a lot of other families riding). Others don't see it that way as they have a different definition of family ride/attraction.

They have some, I just would not say they have a "lot".

DJ/Pete/Chief:

I don't think I was swinging too far in the other direction really; it was thought out for optimal balance. As of 1994, Cedar Point had Raptor, Blue Streak, Disaster Transport, Iron Dragon, Wild Cat, Mine Ride, Mean Streak, Gemini, Jr. Gemini, Magnum, and Corkscrew. That's 11 roller coasters - more than most family parks today. Sure it would have been much more ideal to build an alternating mix of family attractions, roller coasters, thrill rides, and shows, but it was already becoming a coaster park in 1994, needing a strong correction the other way for a balanced family park.

The point was...had Cedar Point agressively focused on being the best all-around family park in 1994 (when it started to decline), it really wouldn't have its identity today (and how do we know that it wouldn't have been the Geauga Lake as a result?). With the ever-increasing expectations as life goes on, CP primarily chose to keep its coasters and thrill rides relevant. To keep dark rides relevant, they really need a multi-million dollar overhaul every 10 years, so keeping up each themed ride may have eaten up 2 new attractions.

So, given its pretty awful location for a business, they chose to really push and market thrills to get people to come to the destination. And it has worked for the most part, so I don't think they're in an awful position today because of that. I think CP is hurting most because of the shrinking populations nearby and because they don't know how to get money from customers once they've arrived.

as some have said, CP is terrible at theming. I'd like to see some better theming to rides. And maybe better landscaping, i mean they've lost SO many trees, and who doesnt like oxygen?, and updating other things that need updated. like raptor needs a paint job, and Millennium's getting one. But i would like, one last coaster. Something B&M. Like i think it'd be cool to build a wing rider, like Raptor at Gardaland. It'd be the first in the US, and i'd also like to see (as some said before) something families can do around it.

I'd like to see a dark ride too. So a wingrider coaster, dark ride, better theming, updating, and better landscaping

sorry for the double post, but do you think an S&S Power El Loco coaster is out of question? I mean it doesnt have a hudge foot print, and its DEFINITLEY a thrilling ride experience!

I'd hate to see a kids ride replaced by a teen ride. I love Steel Hawg. But, I don't think kids who ride Wildcat would necessarily ride an S&S El Loco.

Steel Hawg looks really fun, but is the capacity as bad as it looks?

AmazingMaverick(: said:
Something B&M. Like i think it'd be cool to build a wing rider, like Raptor at Gardaland. It'd be the first in the US, and i'd also like to see (as some said before) something families can do around it.

I'd like to see a dark ride too. So a wingrider coaster, dark ride, better theming, updating, and better landscaping

I like your way of thinking there dude. Since your thinking along the lines of a B&M, wouldn't it be nice if Cedar Point added a floorless? Ohio hasn't had a floorless coaster since Geauga Lake had one with Batman/Dominator. Also did you have a link to that Wing rider your talking about?