Big Dipper to CP?

Ringer - right on about hockey. The NBA lost my respect when King James was allowed to flop into players and get fouls called on them. In hockey, that's called a dive.

Wahoo - great post. You explained perfectly what happened, and the realities of the situation involving Cleveland.

Walt - Is Cam playing with the microwave again?

Josh - you can tell who's from Ohio based on who's wearing "period" red and "old lady" grey.

Chief Wahoo said:

What remains is a visual reminder (the Dipper) of their once loved park (and yes...there were many years when it did just fine...thank you very much) and the company who was part of all the damage done is going to want to woo those folks over to Sandusky to spend money there.

Geauga Lake lasted for 124 years. (More if you count WWK). Obviously, enough people spent enough money at Geauga Lake for the better part of a century. Perhaps not throngs, but, even at the end, three-quarters of a million people per year.

Chief Wahoo said:

So, if that ride doesn't get sold...which likely will occur...they have two choices. Reduce the ride to rubble or not.

The sanest thing noted either here or on CoasterBuzz. They are paying for it to come down one way or the other. Bell's Park in Tulsa dismantled the Zingo and put it into storage--I doubt they had $5m, and, therefore, I doubt dismantling and moving The Big Dipper into storage cost a hugely uneconomical amount.

(In fact, weren't people saying that dismantling, moving and reassmbling X-Flight/Firehawk cost $2mil?)

If I were to do a Pro-Con List, I'd doubt CF moves The Dipper. However, as Chief points out, they've got it, what are they going to do with it?

Demolishing it will cost $$$, and generate bad publicity. Will that significantly hurt CP? Probably not. But they are both costs with no compensating benefit.

Moving The Dipper will add, at least at an incramental level, to CP or KI or wherever. Moving Vodoo/Steel Venom to Dorney, X-Flight to KI, and Thunderhawk cost more than scrapping them would have, yet CF believed that those rides would add value to the new parks. Jeff is skeptical that MiA can generate enough custmers to support Thunderhawk--if GL which drew 700,000 couldn't, how can MiA which only draws 500,000? Steel Venom (like most half-pipe type rides) isn't and won't be a significant draw, yet CF spent $$$ moving them instead of selling/scrapping them. Clearly, CF believes they have some value.

Moving The Dipper will not only bring some incramental value value, but another one: publicity. I have no idea what mentions in the Cleveland/Akron newspapers & TV stations are worth, but you better believe publicity THAT OTHERWISE CP WOULD NOT GET has some value. They don't hold Media Days for new rides b/c they love journalists.

(BTW, I agree, Villian or even RWB is a better fit at CP. But Dipper is a better publicity vehicle.)

Bottom line is this: CF has to do something with ALL the rides at Geauga Lake that they can't sell. Scrapping them has a cost. Moving them has a cost, but also some benfits. Do these benefits outweigh the costs? None of us KNOWS how CF views these things. We can guess ("No") but we don't know. If The Dipper caused 1% of GL's 700,000 visitors to make 1 extra trip to CP at $40 percap that would be 7000 X $40 = $280,000 per year. (1.5% would be $420,000 per year.) Plus, probably, publicity that would cost CP $50,000. Is that enough to make it economically feasable? I have no idea. But, unless Kinzel, Falfas or Crage is lurking, neither does anybody else here.

(If it were me, I'd move all three woodies from GL and leave Magic Mountain in the dust.) Chief is right: CF owns them they have to do SOMETHING with them.

Chief Wahoo said:

I would put money on this: If the Paramount purchase didn't happen Geauga Lake would be opening for business in the next couple of weeks.

I'd put money on that too.

The cost of moving the Big Dipper to the Point would be a spit in the bucket compared to the money Cedar Fair is going to make off of that property when they sell it. Too many small parks on the shores of Lake Erie with classic wood coasters have been lost to build apartments, condos and housing developments. I think that it would be sort of a healing process to move the Dipper to the Point, whether it was the best wooden coaster at Geauga Lake or not. I would personally rather have the Villain.

mk522 said:
It's fun to see a ride host come on here and think they know everything about Cedar Fair's operations.

You're a seasonal employee, nothing more. You know what the rest of the public knows, that's it. You can make educated guesses (or in this case, not). in the end none of us sits on the board of directors or their meetings.

Never said I knew entirely everything about the operations of the park or the entire company. I'm allowed to have opinions on this matter, and with all the reasons I've given, I think Big Dipper would be a bad move.

But I do know a lot, thank you very much. And me BEING a seasonal employee, um, has nothing to do with.

Ok? Thanks.

Michigan's Adventure had more people than GL last year.

All of the "it won't cost that much" comments neglect the fact that it's still cheaper just to knock it down. I'm not suggesting that's the outcome, only pointing it out. As for relocation, as they've said on the conference call, it generally costs about 50 cents on the dollar to move a ride over buying new. So moving X-Flight do Kings Island sure didn't cost "$2mil" or anything in that neighborhood.

Michigan's Adventure has more than just a water park.

Tell the masses that, upon arrival at Michigan's Adventure (opening), most people flocked to their water park, leaving the rides merely walk-ons. I think the only wait I experienced was the Wolverine Wildcat, mainly because they only operate one train.

Aaronosmer said:
Michigan's Adventure has more than just a water park.

durr...

I'm glad Villainboi got it.

I actually got it and I've never even been to Michigan's Adventure.

I will note that I didn't say WHEN the decision was made.

Jeff said:

they've said on the conference call, it generally costs about 50 cents on the dollar to move a ride over buying new.

If that's the case, relocating The Big Dipper would cost less than $3m.

According to rcdb it cost $6.5m to build Voyage. Big Dipper is less than 1/2 the height and less than 1/2 the length of Voyage.

Legend, which is about 50% taller & 50% longer than The Dipper, cost $3m in 2000--and it has an underground tunnel.

Chief -

I don't want to make any assumptions regarding your post but I believe the decision to close Geauga Lake was made the day the Paramount purchase became official.

If that "small" transaction never took place Geauga Lake would be opening for its 120th season.

Big dipper will never go to CP. If it did, it would be surrounded by enormous giants that defy the sky! :)

Such as their latest sky-stretching titan, Maverick?

OldCoasterLover said:

I don't want to make any assumptions regarding your post but I believe the decision to close Geauga Lake was made the day the Paramount purchase became official.

Wrong.

I will say though that I'm sure they always had an exit strategy in case it didn't work out. What's asinine is to suggest they wanted it to fail, but that's a very, very dead horse.

Geauga Lake's doors closed the day people decided to stop going to it. Which seems to have a direct link to the mishandling of the park by Six Flags (among other things, of course). But I hate how people think that it was closed for any other reason than economic. Why keep something open that loses money?

^^Apparently that horse will never be dead enough, huh Jeff? :)

-Tambo

While I agree with Jeff that any smart business man has an emergency escape plan I still feel that Geauga Lake was purchased for other reasons. First I don’t believe they wanted it to fall flat on its face but I do think that Cedar Fair did not want anyone else to purchase the property thus making it possible to become competition to the property in Sandusky.

With that said I don’t think personally it ever was competition but a few things that happened at Cedar Point while Six Flags Ohio/Worlds of Adventure was in operation make me a bit skeptical of the no competition theory.

If Cedar Fair Didn't want anyone competition to buy the park, why did they let Six Flags buy it when they did?

When Cedar Fair bought Geauga Lake from Six Flags the competition was over, and I doubt than anyone that might have been considered competition, even thought twice about purchasing it.

Cedar Fair probably looked at it as a chance to corner the NE Ohio market with the purchase. Can I say for sure that they didn't buy to close it? Not with all certainty, but I highly doubt it.

-Tambo

tambo said:
^^Apparently that horse will never be dead enough, huh Jeff? :)

-Tambo

So are you insinuating that I said that Cedar Fair intended to sell GL all along? Cause I believe what I said was, Six Flags screwed up GL so bad that people didn't want to go anymore and it was losing so much money that CF had to sell it. Unless your reading skills are at a 3rd grade level, anyone could figure out that that's what I was saying. So stop putting words in my mouth.