Will TTD operations be impacted by Knott's incident?

GoBucks89 said:
Shades -- I said someone is naive if they ride rides with no expectation that they "may" get hurt. Big difference.

I will say it again using your words - I have no expectation that I "may" get hurt. There is no misunderstanding.

Ok, based on those responses, I do think you are naive. Do you think that the two riders at Knotts rode with the expectation that they would get hurt? I don't think they did because I don't think any sane person would ride a ride with an expectation that they would get hurt (at least not seriously hurt). Do you think they rode with an expectation that they may get hurt? To me, if they were being realistic and honest, the answer would be yes. To you, the answer should be no. But in the end, what happened? They got hurt. And that could have easily been anyone else who has ever ridden that ride (or Dragster or Kingda Ka to the extent the ride mechanics that failed are the same on those rides). So the risk is there with any of these rides. And having great safety records and very low historical accident rates does not mean the risk has been eliminated (such that riders may never be hurt) but only that the risk has been significantly reduced.

I think that many people (not directed at you specifically) have a belief that if something negative happens to a person and its not the person's fault, that it must be someone else's fault. And it may be the case that someone else is at fault. But it may also be the case that something bad happened while someone was doing something that has risk (no matter what the level of that risk). Life is a risk.

The Fabio bird example is a good example of an act of god. There is simply no responsible party at play. Kind of like swallowing a bug on MF, but on a little larger scale. No jury would ever say that a park has a responsibility to control one goose, and a lawsuit would be silly. Public perception being what is is, I'm sure a park would smooth things over in such an event, but there really wouldn't be recourse in law. If people were continually being hit by geese and the park had notice of this...but that's another matter.

But I don't see that as akin to a mechanical failure. If a cable snaps on a ride, something went wrong, and that something can be attributable to some human error. It is correct to say that it might not result in liability for the park, as it could be a manufacturing or design defect, in which case it becomes a glorified product liability case, and the manufacturer and/or subcontractors, suppliers, consultants, etc. would be on the hook. However, those parties might turn around and countersue the park for negligent inspection of the ride. It then becomes an issue of sussing out the most responsible party.

So I don't buy mechanical failure as some sort of act of god. These things are inspected on a routine basis, and a park like CP is responsible for any latent defects on its property. If a building were to collapse, nobody would say "well that was just the sort of thing that happens." There would be someone at fault, to be very sure. Things like roller coasters simply don't have a 90-day warranty period, after which anything goes.

And also, just to point it out, if your car breaks down for no reason (barring some discernible design or manufacturing defect) and causes an accident, you are liable. No question about it.

Looking at the video a few times it seems pretty clear that something damaged the train on the way back enough to skew the seat, which means that the frame of the car may well have been bent.

What I don't get is why only the front car, if something was sticking up from the track, you would think the cars behind the front car would have been affected also.

I'm still lost as to what could have went down but I'd hate to think that, somehow in someway, the chaindog didn't retract and hit the catchcar at the point where it stopped (since it didn't reach the end of the launch track due to the cable fray).

Of course that's just a wild guess.

Pete I have to totally agree with you. It does seem strange that only the kid's seat moved and not other seats on the train. Its possible that damage was only done to the front car on the failed launch and the resulting damage hit something as it was moving backward. That could explain why only the front of the train was affected.

If you get a good enough lawyer and have unlimited funds or a decent wad of cash, subgoration(sp) will occur,this is where they nit pit every single peice of material involved then ulitimatly sue the heck out of the one part the caused the accident. Those are my laymen terms for it. It happens alot when say Company A assembles lets say a washer, it blows up, they pick it apart, find a bad bolt, then instead of Company A getting sued, the company that made the bolt does.

Jeff: That Geauga Lake incident, IIRC, turned out not to be a phone lost by a fellow rider, but a stone thrown by a jackass in the picnic area or along the road. Initially they thought it was someone's cell phone but later determined they had a more serious problem.

I say again that I don't know what, if anything, is happening with the seats on the train. But on the frame where you see the armrests come apart, if you look a little closer you can also see the camera on the next seat get wider, and in that same frame there are three headrests on the right-hand seat, the right-hand rider has three heads, the left-hand rider has two heads, and it looks like the whole train bent in half in the middle. That's why I am not entirely convinced that we are seeing what we think we are seeing. I also respect that most of the CoasterBuzz and PointBuzz readers happen to disagree with me on this one. :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I am very surprised this video is out. I assume this is a video sold to the riders. Whoever sold it may not be liked by management.

GoBucks89 said:
Ok, based on those responses, I do think you are naive.

I think you're naive if you think even for an instant that if a person gets hurt on a ride that the park (or its insurers) aren't going to pay dearly. If that's not what you're arguing, I'd love to know what your point is.

I did a little experiment by pausing the video and holding a piece of paper marked with the exact distance between the armrests while the train was in the station. When the first impact occurs, presumably caused by the cable break, both seats move to the left on the screen. That movement is very likely caused by the camera moving due to impact by debris. But, when the second impact occurs during the rollback, the armrest on the seat on the right of the screen remains stationary and perfectly aligned with the measuring paper but the armrest on the seat on the left of the screen moves more to the left. The distance between armrests is also greater as measured on the screen. To me that proves that the seat moved during the second impact, not the camera.

In reading this thread and a similar one on coasterbuzz, I have seen posts to the effect that (i) noone rides a ride with any expectation that they may get hurt, (ii) I will never ride another rocket launch coaster until they insure that this will never happen again, (iii) accidents like this should never happen ever, etc. My point is simply that if someone rides rides with no expectation that they may ever get injured on one or if they think that rides can be built on which no one will ever get hurt, I think that someone is naive. We have complex machines with thousands of parts that are designed, installed, tested, operated and maintained by humans with limited technology which operate 8-12 hours a day every day for months at a time. Combine that with the forces, speeds, heights, twists, turns, etc. involved with many of these rides and I think that anyone who rides with no thought that they could ever get hurt riding a ride is just fooling themselves. And I suspect that most people who view it that way do so because of the incredible safety record that the industry has in general. But because the risk may be small and steps are continually being taken to reduce them further, doesn't mean that risk doesn't exist.

And as I have never thought (for an instant or otherwise) that a park (or its insurance company) wouldn't pay dearly for someone who gets injured on a ride and haven't posted anything indicating otherwise, there is no reason to address that point.

At this point, Intamin and Cedar Fair MUST at least acknowledge that there indeed is a MAJOR fault witht this type of ride. I wonder how much it will cost to have LSM's installed on the whole launch section of track to replace the cable launch of TTD if at all possible. What is it going to take for them to finally admit fault? A severed body in the front row of TTD in full visibility of the midway slowly rolling back into the station? This could have been much worse but we have already had 2 cable snaps on MF, on TTD a frayed cable sent shards of metal in to the faces of riders making them all bleed.The Kingda Ka Cable snap caused MAJOR destruction to the launch system, the train was almost crushed and actual track damage. Someone could have been killed if they were riding Kingda Ka during that. Lets not forget the girl who had both feet severed from snapping cables at SFKK and another similiar accident recently with another drop tower in another country that I cannot remember. All of these ride are from Intamin. This is getting really bad.

I wonder when the last time was somebody got killed by a B&M -- and I mean someone actually on the ride, not underneath it "retrieving his hat".

I wonder the last time someone died on an arrow coaster. (If it wasn't there own stupid fault)

clevelander said:
At this point, Intamin and Cedar Fair MUST at least acknowledge that there indeed is a MAJOR fault with this type of ride.

There's no fault in the design as this is something that is more maintenance related. After the incident in 04, CP looked into better/stronger grades of cables and even now, do regular tests that prevent cable snaps. I'm not sure if Knott's has taken these precautions, but I'm sure they will now if they haven't already. And the only true "fault" is that the cables are only exposed as they go through the track and into the hydraulic room. Other than that, the launch cables are mostly enclosed in the troth (or whatever it's truly called).

I wonder how much it will cost to have LSM's installed on the whole launch section of track to replace the cable launch of TTD if at all possible.

Most likely in the upper millions. And it most likely wouldn't work as well. Aside from pneumatics, hydraulics/cables are the most effective method of propulsion for "this type of ride" pound for pound. And until they make powerful enough LSM's to launch a 5 car train with it's given launch track length (which they are getting close to doing), they won't change what they use. They did however build an LSM launch coaster this year (iSpeed) so I'm sure if it goes well, they'll throw it out to parks that might want a launch coaster as apposed to hydraulic.

The Kingda Ka Cable snap caused MAJOR destruction to the launch system, the train was almost crushed and actual track damage. Someone could have been killed if they were riding Kingda Ka during that.

That wasn't due to a cable snap, it was a bolt that held the sections of cable troth together that failed. It came loose and caused the troth to jut into the launch cable. The cable then began to rub against it causing sparks AND a drag in the launch speed. The computer tried to compensate by increasing the torque which didn't work. Then the rollback brakes caught up to the train causing it to slow even more which the computer tried to compensate for again. And when the train reached the end of the track where the troth was damaged, the catchcar slammed into the troth and caused the damage to the train and track.

Lets not forget the girl who had both feet severed from snapping cables at SFKK and another similiar accident recently with another drop tower in another country that I cannot remember. All of these ride are from Intamin. This is getting really bad.

And most of those drop towers were either removed or had some serious look into their cables.

The Navy is currently building a new class of Air Craft Carrier that is going to use a Linear Induction Motor to launch airplanes, so I don't see why they couldn't work as a replacement.

Also, the drop tower at Six Flags in Kentucky was found to be using a cable that was not recommended for use by Intamin AG.

I hope that the hydraulic motor is not replaced, because I like that sudden extreme velocity, and enormous acceleration from the start, whereas the LIM or LSM systems have a smoother acceleration.

TTD 120mph said:
There's no fault in the design as this is something that is more maintenance related. After the incident in 04, CP looked into better/stronger grades of cables and even now, do regular tests that prevent cable snaps.

If they followed the maintenance procedures from Intamin and this STILL happened, then I think either the design is flawed or the maintenance procedures are flawed.

Like I said, the only true "flaw" I see is the opening where the cables are exposed. Other than that, the troth is doing it's job in keeping the cables contained so it's not flawed. In Ka's incident, they couldn't suspect that due to intense vibrations at the end of the launch track would have the effect on the bolts that it did. They fixed the problem but it was more or less due to a structural design flaw (the track supports being to tall and narrow for it's height) as apposed to a mechanical.

Cougarfan, what the navy is doing is a bit more advanced than what coaster companies are meddling with....though they're getting more and more powerful. And while LSMs aren't as powerful as hydraulics, they're no more smoother in my opinion than hydraulics. Also, I was launched on Maverick from a dead stop in the tunnel and that was a surprisingly intense launch.

And if Kentucky Kingdom was indeed using a cable that wasn't recommended by Intamin then that's not a design flaw but a personal fault on Kentucky Kingdoms behalf.

^I wouldn't want LIM/LSM's on TTD. I love the Top Thrill Dragsters launch. From also being launched on Maverick from a dead stop, that launch can be really intense.