Two Trains on Mantis

I was referring to guests being stupid on Corkscrew and not on Mantis. By "stupid" I meant guests that would, for example, keep going past entrance after the entrance person tells the guest that they can't bring something on and the guest says its okay and the people up top will let them take it on the ride with them. I would call that a stupid guest.

I just find it extremely odd that when I visited CP in 2000, that Mantis ran all 3 trains and I saw many times when the crew did hit interval.

I absolutely loved it when Mantis ran with 3 trains and you would come to the hard stop on the main brake when they would stack. I didn't think it was that unbearable.

On Corkscrew, we barely hit our interval and we almost always stack at least one of our trains. But when we would transfer off a train at the end of the night, we would have idle time between trains. At the beginning of the day, it may have seemed pointless to run with 3 because of all of the stacking, but at the end of the day, it could be seen that the 3rd train was helping capacity because we would have idle time between trains.

This year when I rode Mantis, I noticed the crew being incredibly slow compared to the crew of 2000. I also encountered one incident at the beginning of the year when the person doing spiels was sitting on the box that people would put their bags and stuff in. By this, it makes me think that the crew this year couldn’t run 3 trains this year because of showing signs of laziness like that. Because the crew this year and last year only had to run with 2 trains, the crew could take more time getting the people situated in their harnesses correctly. If the crew picked up the pace a bit, they would see that they might almost always be able to send a train after the other is going through the corkscrew. This seemed to happen more often in 2001 than this year. This year when I rode, the crew usually couldn’t get trains out of the station until after the 2nd one had stacked. Granted, dispatching a train from the station when the other is in the corkscrew isn't close to a 3 train interval at all, but there would now be idle time until the train going through the corkscrew would make it back into the station. This little bit of idle time generated by 2 train operation can show that putting on the third train would be useful even if the ride still stacks, because you might be able to send about 10 more trains per hour because of the idle time generated by 2 trains, which would overall increase capacity. There would also be instances when the train could be dispatched from the station as the other one is going through the loop which would be an excellent 3 train interval. Some dispatches you hit interval, some you don’t. But overall running 3 trains would up capacity.

For some of you still thinking that running 3 trains wouldn’t up capacity, take a look at the number of riders in 2000 and 2001.

2000 Number of Coaster Rides Given

1.) Gemini -- 2,437,198
2.) Raptor -- 2,055,065
3.) Magnum XL-200 -- 1,985,296
4.) Millennium Force -- 1,735,347
5.) Iron Dragon -- 1,679,303
6.) Mantis -- 1,444,817
7.) Corkscrew -- 1,419,106
8.) Mean Streak -- 1,137,143

2001 Number of Coaster Rides Given

1.) Gemini -- 2,439,934
2.) Raptor -- 2,171,280
3.) Magnum XL-200 -- 2,130,694
4.) Millennium Force -- 1,864,653*
5.) Iron Dragon -- 1,680,269
6.) Corkscrew -- 1,347,482
7.) Mantis -- 1,253,978
8.) Mean Streak -- 1,085,154

*Numbers for Millennium Force in 2001 weren't given. The number of riders figured out is by using this little formula:
Over 3,600,000 since 2000, so 3,600,000 - 1,735,347 = 1,864,653

Percent of Number of Riders Up/Down from 2000-2001

1.) Millennium Force -- 7.45% up
2.) Magnum XL-200 -- 7.32% up
3.) Raptor -- 5.66% up
4.) Gemini -- 0.11% up
5.) Iron Dragon -- up 0.06%
6.) Mean Streak -- 4.79 % down
7.) Corkscrew -- 5.32% down
8.) Mantis -- 15.22% down

I know that one of the reasons Corkscrew’s numbers are down is because in 2000, more items were permitted on Corkscrew. In 2001, purses got caught in the wheels of the train twice so the policy was changed where purses were also not allowed. This can explain why Corkscrew’s numbers went down that much. But the numbers on Mantis went down significantly. Why did the numbers drop so much? Well, because in 2001, Mantis ran with only 2 trains for the entire year. So 3 trains does help capacity, which is why the ride should run with all 3 trains.

------------------
Corkscrew Crew 2002
http://www.msu.edu/~kemppai8/ --- My stupid website
*** This post was edited by Sapman 10/1/2002 5:18:18 PM ***

yes justin good point

hey how is naomi doing?

She's alright. Her mom is sick and she is going to go back home for good probably at the end of the 1st week of October. I'm staying until the very end. When she leaves, David Dailey is coming back to Corkscrew to be TL.

------------------
Corkscrew Crew 2002
http://www.msu.edu/~kemppai8/ --- My stupid website

sweet! about DD

i still need to call her. when is she leaving?

Sapman - let me just say that I agree 100% with what you are saying about Mantis. In fact, I made almost the same analysis back in the offseason in this thread. No, the third train would not increase capacity by 33%, but it probably would increase it by about 13-15%, the amount of capacity that was dropped between 2000 and 2001. There is no doubt that Mantis is a difficult ride to work, but unfortunately, I think there has been a downturn in the culture surrounding that ride over the past few years. It has gone from, "yea, this ride is a pain to work, but we're going to bust our balls to keep our numbers up" to "it is impossible to hit interval with three trains, so drop it to two and let our line grow so we can say we have the same line as MF."

I think the "can do" attitude needs to return to Mantis rather than this endless complaining about bouncing guests and how hard it is to hit interval. Will you hit interval every time? No. Will you hit it between 1/3 and 1/2 the time? I believe the answer is yes and the ridership numbers will be back close to what they were in 2000.

-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

They should make it so that Mantis will set up if they stack. I know it sure gets us to "bust our balls" on Gemini. ;)

------------------
Brent Haley
Gemini Crew '02

I think that it kinda makes sense right now because they have to get two trains down before they can hook up with three.

------------------
Welcome to the Magnum XL-200, the coaster featured most on the Discovery Channel.

I still don't understand the big deal about stacking trains...WHO CARES!...LIVE WITH IT... There's stacking on all coasters. Should we start yanking trains off of all of them. So what if Mantis does it a little more. Seriously, in the amusement park of life, is it really hurting that much?

If you want to look for a problem, try the bicycle seats. They are way to big. It's no wonder people want to sit and bounce on them. It also doesn't help that they're pulled up into your throat either.

------------------
I was super before Superstew was cool

Well, stacking in terms of some of the rides at CP is okay, but stacking trains is something that good crews work very hard to avoid. For example, Magnum is designed to stack 1 train on the readies for about 10 seconds during normal 3 train operation, but if you don't move the train on the readies up in time, you're going to have a set up (VERY BAD). We probably hit interval 95% of the time last year meaning that we dispatched the train in the station as the previous one was cresting the top of the second hill. If it was any later than that, we counted it as a missed interval. On average, we probably set up (stacked all three trains) between two and three times a day for whatever reason. I realize that it isn't going to be possible (barring modifications to the restraints and platform) to hit interval every time on Mantis like we did at Magnum or they usually do at Raptor, but they could probably hit interval 40% of the time.

-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

Indeed.

If they could do 40% interval, that certainly should be enough to warrant putting the 3rd train back on. That would increase capacity almost one and a half times, something sorely needed.

------------------
I was super before Superstew was cool!

Well, it'd probably increase it about 15%, not one and a half times... :) Ideally a third train would increase capacity by 33%. But if you only hit interval 40% of the time, that number goes down alot.

-Matt
2001 Magnum Crew

---

Superstew said:
I still don't understand the big deal about stacking trains...WHO CARES!...LIVE WITH IT...

---

So you're OK with waiting longer than you have to? I wish I could undervalue my time like that.

------------------
Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"There's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, when it's all in your mind. You gotta let go." - Ghetto, Supreme Beings of Leisure

No way guy...and that's just my point. My time is very valuable especially since I only get to the park 7 or 8 times a year. Believe me when I say that I'd rather not be dicking around in line waiting any longer than I have too.

It sounds to me like you think that the wait is shorter now with 2 train operation hitting interval (I assume) than it was with 3 train operation and all its stacking. That may be the case on your visits, but every time I've been there since they went to 2 trains the waiting times have been disgusting. Now when they were running 3, even with all the stacking the wait was always WAY shorter. How can this be?

------------------
I was super before Superstew was cool

Only 7 to 8 times. I envy you. I get to go for a weekend in the fall (which happened to be last weekend).

Anyways, Mantis is fine with two trains. I don't mean to make fun of any Mantis crew members here, but they were pretty slow. Sometimes a train would be sitting on the brakes while the other train was still sitting in the station. Part of this wasn't the ops problem but of guests not paying attention, acting up, etc.

Now I do realize that the crew can't be perfect, but yet I do realize that it is common sense that they don't take 2 minutes loading each train. They shouldn't have to re-check almost every single restraint, but yet they do. Yet again, I realize this all isn't the ops fault but they could speed up the process just a little bit.

Hopefully they will take care of these problems and figure out a way to productively run a 3rd train, but until then we shouldn't complain about Mantis because I know the park is trying as much as they possibly can to offer the very best park experience (especially coaster-wise). Perhaps an unloading station is in store for Mantis in the future, but there are a lot worse capacity rides in the park. For example, Scrambler. On Friday night (9/27) there was one very nice ride operator, but she was extremely slow. She stopped and talked to just about every kid and said the same thing about a haunted house, trick or treating, etc. It was fairly annoying, considering that was one of the longest waits of the night.

------------------
Turkeys, the only animal smarter than man

How can it be? It's little more than your perception. Someone earlier in the topic did the break out in a 3 vs. 2 train year. 15% loss in capacity I'm sure isn't something anyone would like, but that means an hour wait keeps you an extra nine minutes. I've been to fast food joints that take longer than that to get my food.

The consider the wear and tear on riders and the ride. When you stack all three, the last train has to slam to a stop on the safety run (before the 90-degree turn). That's a fast stop, uncomfortable for riders, and a lot of wear on the brake pads.

------------------
Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"There's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, when it's all in your mind. You gotta let go." - Ghetto, Supreme Beings of Leisure
*** This post was edited by Jeff 9/30/2002 11:43:38 PM ***

With just about all of the coasters next year being rumored to get dispatch enable buttons and air gates that do not have them, would it be that bad of an idea to break the Consign rule on B&M coasters (I’m assuming there has to be one, or else the train wouldn’t stop hard on the set of brakes before the transfer track brakes) of having one empty block between every train when the train is traveling so fast? The computer systems on rides without air gates and dispatch enable buttons will have to be tweaked to add these features. While Cedar Point is at it, they might as well tweak the computer system on Mantis (yes, I know Mantis already has a dispatch enable button and air gates) to make the safety break #2 (I'm assuming that is what it is technically called) slow down the 3rd train (If running 3) to the same speed when running 2 trains, and make the train stack in the transfer brake. By doing this, there wouldn't be as much wear and tear on the riders and the safety #2 brakes. I don't really understand why B&M's computer systems are designed differently from Arrow's. I mean sure, a B&M would be safer by having an extra empty block between trains traveling at a certain speed, but what are the odds of brake failure anyway when the brakes are automatically closed when power is not applied? I don’t really understand why the computer system wasn’t set up where train #3 would stack in the transfer brakes.
------------------
Corkscrew Crew 2002
http://www.msu.edu/~kemppai8/ --- My stupid website

Nice! I needed someone to bail me out ;)

------------------
I was super before Superstew was cool!

I know this topic is like 9 years old, but rather than start a new topic, I figured I would just add to the topic.
My question was, what if they had a set-up similar to Millennium Force where one train loaded and the other one unloaded? And I know they use the third train on Mantis for parts, but if they had this set-up on Mantis would they be able to bring back 3 train operation?

I'm not sure that the ride has the popularity to warrant that kind of reconfiguration.

If I'm not mistaken, that is what the ride was originally going to do. I was always told there was supposed to be an unload station and load station.