Two Trains on Mantis

Mantis was designed as a stand-up rollercoaster, and it should stay that way.  I think they should just add an unloading station.  There's certainly enough room.

I found it kind of ironic that on Aug 5th,  CCMR was running 3 trains and was pretty much a walk-on all day, while Mantis had a long wait and was running 2 trains.  I find it weird that management thinks that adding the 3rd train wouldn't help to up capacity at all.
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http://sapman.homestead.com --- My stupid website

It's been discussed here before.. but runnign 3 trains on Mantis does NOT increase capacity because the 3rd train spends it's time waiting for the #2 train to move into the load station usually while #1 is on the course. Called stacking.

Whereas, runnign two trains.. one dispatches.. one runs.. by the time it gets back the other has dispatched so you're moving the maximum number of people as you always have trains moving and nothing is stacked slowing down the amount of time between re-loads.

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- Egg Whites -
MF total - 385 laps
June 11th, 2001 - Gemini 100
"I WILL be ther for the silver tag.. I PROMISE.."

they said it ran better wit only 2 trains and the 3rd train has a cover on it

Of course it would be better to run 3 trains! You may stack the 3rd train, but every so often, when you don't stack, and you get your interval down, you increase capacity. At least that's how I see it.

I've got just one question: What's so different between last year (ability to run 3 trains) and this year (the plain refusal to run 3 trains)?

The problem is when you have a train stacked behind the station. If there's a short delay and the third train comes in, where will it stop if the stacking block is full? The ride sets up (does a E-Stop thing or something, I don't run a coaster..) That is a problem.
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DIPPIN DOTS!!!111 THEY ROXOR YUR WORLD!!1!

The third train will stop on the slow-down brake...the one aligned perpendicular to the transfer table. The stop back there is not a pleasant one.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

...and if that one is occupied, it'll stop on the mid-course brake.  I wouldn't want to feel that one!

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MF...taking thrills to new heights!

Ehhhh, really its no worse than coming to a full stop in the service area.
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-Brian
I really should be working...

Mantis can not set up from stacking.

Actually it can if the first train is not pulled fully into the station.

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-Brian
I really should be working...

Though I am not entirely sure if it is even possible, I still like the idea on makeing Mantis a floorless :)

Mikey, who thinks the new Star Wars name "Attack of the clones" sounds very stupid

Train 3 is now off the track on blocks on the ground behind the xfer station, you can see it from the cue line of Mantis easily.

Also Mantis will not Set-up to e-stop itself. It may block, but it will never e-stop unless something is really out of whack, that is the way B&M does their coasters. Maybe if the programming was changed a little you wouldn't have the problem of a full block stop on the half-way trim-platform (the ride will continue itself after the block has been corrected by moving the trains on, but the timing to get a block stop is almost too weird to happen (I've seen it once, it's a super fast dispatch, followed by a non complete move into station for unload).

But if you look at the track there are four brake sets at the station. One in station, one behind station, (hold for station unload, where an unload station would be), transfer (not engaged during normal ops) and slow-down trim (or station full).

If the transfer brakes were used, as a second hold for station the the slow-down would not be as harsh (non-complete stop) they would still bring the train to under 10mph for the xfer brakes to work correctly (or hold brakes if the trains were not stacked). But anyone who has rode it knows that all three trains can be on the seperate brakes behind the station. The issue arises when a B&M safety design comes into bearing, almost every B&M has a blocking rule of one empty brake run between all trains moving over 5mph (why the station can have two trains together, but if a third arives it's stoped out at the slow-down area, and xfer is left empty. a coding bug in which the car WAS moving faster than 5 so it can't be release through the next block until the train in front clears the brakes at the front of that block) But since there is only three trains, we have a place for them all to go, thus no set-up to e-stop. (note the extra brakes on any B&M, the brakes down the first hill on Mantis, the brakes in the middle of the loop at SF on batman, all for e-stop in case a train passes through a block stop.)

But to go back to the original post, if they could get it loaded faster to dispatch, than 3 trains would be faster, maybe not to unload, just because the possibility is there, remove the possibility and it will never get faster.

It's a stand-up, LEAVE IT THAT WAY! It's great that way, why make it like batman, if you want to sit down riding the Mantis, go ride batman, I want to stand, so I'll ride Mantis.

As far as loading problems, they seem to be on every ride now. I've never seen so many stupid cattle at parks as I have this year. I'm always thrilled to go to a coaster event, because the load times are cut to 1/4 of what they are during a normal public ride time, all because people can follow directions, know how the ride loads, and how to sit (or stand).

The Mantis crew (which ever one) always has done an excellent job at loading, espicially dealing with the "you don't sit down, it's a stand up roller coaster" problem. And CP is always #1 in my book for loads, Not Disney, and never a six flags. The only park that ranks anywhere near them is Holiday World, and then it's a tie. Yes their load times and quotas can be met. But it only works if the guests help out.... 

Got a couple corrections on the controls. :-)

The brakes before the transfer table are the safeties. They aren't used for the second waiting position cuz as the name says, theyre there as a safety backup in case a bigtime failure happens to the service brakes. Plus there isn't a specific rule on there being another brake run if trains are going above 5 mph. If a train's sitting in the service brake and the block is clear, the computer will still let a train be dropped off the lift. The train comes into the block a lot faster than 5 mph but there's only one brake run there; besides, Consign, who actually has always done all of the safety systems for B&M coasters, not B&M themselves, do all the system speeds in m/s since B&M is European. Lastly, the trims you're talking about like the ones down the first drop and near the loop on Batman are just trims. They can't stop a train and they're open in case of an estop so the train doesn't valley. Hey, what's the "coding bug" you're talking about? Anyways, that's just a few corrections, hope it helps :-)

*CP Irvine*
The FewEr, The Proud, The Po!nter Girls

*** This post was edited by CP Irvine on 9/5/2001. ***

haven't read all the posts and this has probably been said but the main problem with mantis is that any guest that notices that the seat bounces will generally continue to do so even when told the seats are about to lock.

8 out of 10 cats prefer whiskas(for the english audience), and 8 out of 10 riders prefer to stand up. it's the other 20% that slow the ride down, unfortunately the seatbelts cause a lot of trouble because a natural reaction is to sit while fastening your belt and that causes a large number of the row releases that the crew has to do.

another big problem with 2000's crew as well as 99's (the only one's i have experience of, nothing personal)  was that guests were often far from pleasant. motivation is always a big influence on how people will work and if they're being slagged off all day then naturally their performance will suffer and they will work less efficiently and  react in kind at times.

but anyway, the reason for writing this, contrary to red garter person's post, 3 trains will always put through more people than two. 2 trains may always hit interval but 96 people on a ride is always better than 64. plus, with a 'puke' train, is running 32 people for 3 rides better than 64 people for 3??? unless there's something wrong, 2 trains should clear the second before the other even enters the safety's. if that happens then you have 20 seconds dead time, much appreciated if you're working but lowers capacity incredibly.

time will tell but i think CP will realise that if they run 3 trains then they will get better capacity. besides that safety brake isn't that bad, try taking a look to the right and bracing yourself if there's a train in waiting.

in conclusion, nobody will top the crew of 2000!!!

You are Wrong! 

Putting 3 trains on will not make any difference.  Trains are still going to be released at the same interval.

...I don't think it's your place to tell him he's wrong when he's been on the Mantis crew for 2 years, and obviously knows what he's talking about.

I thought last year's crew were nice, and fast. There were probably the best crew since the installation of seatbelts in 1999.

I've said it before that no matter if you stack the trains while running 3, you'll still run more people through in the long run. Perhaps 8 of 10 (dramatization) trains may stack, however, those other two that hit interval will add to the total capacity.

When I asked one of the ride ops this year why the 3rd train has been off the track all year, he said, in a demeaning tone, becuase it was too hard for them to hit the interval. That's a bunch of malarkey! (...I feel like my old man) At that moment, they were dispatching the train while the other one was going through the corkscrew. If there was a 3rd train on, they would have just increased their loading capacity by 32 people, theoretically. I was about to ask him what the big difference from this year to last year was, but I decided not to persue the question.

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MF count: 20

Interval is what it's all about. With a well trained crew, Mantis could run with 3 trains and hit interval. Corkscrew constantly stacks 2 of its trains, sometimes even 3 because of stupid guests and our crew being lazy, but you don't see the sliver tags telling us to take a train off of it. On Mantis, it just all depends on how quick the ride ops can get the guests in, making sure they are standing and to lock the harnesses. On Mantis, I honestly think it would be better for the person on controls to lock each row of seats at a time when the ride host gives a hand signal to do so, rather than locking all of the train at once and then having to unlock just about every row. Corkscrew is probably the hardest ride at Cedar Point to hit interval on because of having to manually lock and unlock the harnesses on each car by stepping on the pedals all in 22 seconds. Our crew hit 48 intervals in one day because we tried really hard to do so. I always try to check harnesses as fast as possible, even if we are running two trains because you don't know if you'll encounter a slow guest while you are checking restraints. I always found it odd that when I was sent to Magnum or the one time to Mean Streak that I could have my lap bars and seat belts checked before the rest of the crew had theirs done. But then again, they have a larger interval time then we do.

Next year I would love to run for leadership on Mantis. I've been 3rd in charge at Corkscrew from mid July to the beginning of August and the acting ATL from the beginning of August and will be until the end of the season; not bad for a first year red tag considering I got there later then the rest of my crew. I've also had no operationals, unlike all the other members of my crew that have at least one. I also have no guest complaints, which is amazing from the amount of people we kick off of Corkscrew :) For these reasons, I think I would make good leadership material and that I would be capable enough to train my Mantis crew next year to hit 3 train interval even though we'd only be running 2 trains and have my supervisors watch. Then it would be great to see what Cedar Point thinks about the whole 3 train operation. If there is an unload station on Mantis next year, I’ll want to go back to Corkscrew so I will actually have a challenge.

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Corkscrew Crew 2002
http://www.msu.edu/~kemppai8/ --- My stupid website

Coming from a current Mantis crew member, I can tell you that in the current state that loading/unloading times run, Mantis can not efficiently run three trains. To hit a perfect interval with 3 train operation, the second train would have to be leaving the station just as the 1st train is coming out of the dive loop and into the turnaround above the station. That means we have to unload/load/check seats/seatbelts and dispatch in a little over 45 seconds. With the guests that like to sit down and/or bounce in their seats, this makes it almost next to impossible to accomplish. If Mantis stacks the 3rd train, then you will HARD STOP in the main brake (the one before the turn into the brake straightaway). I can vividly remember test riding in the morning and we would sometimes hard stop. It hurts.

I would hope that CP decides to put the 3rd train back on, but with the seatbelts and guests bouncing, I really don't see that happening. Maybe everyone here can spread the word to your friends not to bounce or sit down when you get in the seat supporters. Spread the word, we ARE a stand-up rollercoaster.

Oh, and about controls, it would be very difficult to release every row individually. The controls on Mantis are spread out across an entire box. It is more effiicent to release all for a little bit and let everyone get reasonably situated and have to release a few rows, then do every single row. You're talking about 8 buttons for rows, plus having to hold down the "seat select" button. Not enough fingers/finger width to go around for that kind of action.

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MANTIS ROCKS 2002
*** This post was edited by Brian Short 9/26/2002 5:45:05 AM ***

The ride will never run three trains with seatbelts unless they build an unload station. It just won't happen. People can call guests "stupid" all they want, it's a unique restraint and they're just doing what instinct tells them to do. Just because they don't work there doesn't make them stupid.

It's that piss-poor attitude toward guests and the hostility on that platform that makes a bad situation worse.

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Jeff
Webmaster/GTTP
Jeff - Webmaster/Admin - CoasterBuzz.com
"There's nowhere to run, nowhere to hide, when it's all in your mind. You gotta let go." - Ghetto, Supreme Beings of Leisure