Extended Closure

Prices sure haven't been lol

GoBucks89:

veritas55:

if it being up and running didn't result in a significant increase in attendance, then why in the world would they have invested so much money into it?

From information we know (Cedar Fair does not release attendance numbers by park), attendance has largely been flat for decades. Even with all of the investments over that time.

Well, according to the Themed Entertainment Association's (TEA) annual reports, Cedar Point has fluctuated from typically 3 million per year to up to 3.7 million in 2019 (I don't know how or where they get CP-specific numbers nor how reliable they are).

In any event, think for a second what you are saying: if building attractions has not either increased attendance, increased season pass purchases, increased in-park spending per capita, or increased used of hotels (these ware the main ways they measure ROI), why are they building all this stuff? Even if they are just holding serve and staying flat, that is still (arguably) ROI.

Otherwise, are they just idiotically building stuff for fun for past few decades -- because, provided they weren't just being fiscal morons, then it necessarily follows that a closed major attraction is hurting revenue.

There will definitely be some lost revenue from TT2 being down. However, I will argue that the vast majority of that lost revenue is only temporary. For the small percentage of people planning to go to Cedar Point for TT2 their trips will most likely be delayed from May, June and possibly July to August and September.

I know several people that have cancelled or delayed trips this year until there is a more definitive timeline for TT2. There is no doubt some impact but the majority of that impact is delayed and overall I think the attendance this year is about on par.

I did go to an extreme with my comments and that was due to the massive doom and gloom on the internet over TT2, not necessarily with folks here but rather the general theme in comments elsewhere. I admit there has to be some impact to the bottom line although I think it is much less, and also more of a temporary thing than a permanent lost revenue type thing.

JUnderhill:

I know several people that have cancelled or delayed trips this year until there is a more definitive timeline for TT2.

I feel like this is a case of a self-selection bias. My anecdotal feedback is that of the people who actually have interest in going to the park, only a very small fraction of those decide whether or not to go based on what the new-for-the-year attraction is. And of those, only a tiny fraction might cancel their trip based on that attraction being closed. There's still obviously plenty to do despite TT2 being closed for the foreseeable future.

And as far as lost revenue from a small number of guests cancelling trips, that is countered by some nonzero amount of savings from not having to operate the ride.

Plague on Wheels:

Zamperla needs to take its ‘L’ for making the trains out of aluminum.

You are completely unqualified to make that assessment.

blauer:
This was a worse investment than the original Top Thrill. At that time, at least intamin had experience with smaller versions of the ride first.

Ask people around in 2003 what they think about that. Or really anyone who had to work on the ride.

Cedar Fair cost cutting strikes again.

That sounds like a Disney nerd. You don't know what this ride cost. How do you even reconcile "cost cutting" with capital investment. Those two things aren't the same thing.

djDaemon:
...there is no universe where a marquee attraction costing tens of millions of dollars being SBNO more than a month after opening day is anything but bad for Zamperla.

Are there different rules for Zamperla? It was so bad for Intamin that they got several more rides at the same park after Dragster.

^^ That’s true, and of course what I said was anecdotal of a few people I know. The vast majority of people I know have passes so TT2 being up or down is really a zero impact on them. I made that comment simply to express that I realize there is some impact to revenue although I believe that impact is on a much smaller scale than most seem to think.

djDaemon:
No, but to be fair, they did blame Zamperla for CF's inability to foresee the need for lockers.

It was definitely a more subtle shifting of blame in that instance. But even then, I don't think it or this train issue as a complete throwing under the bus. For me, its hard to make that assertion without the full details.

Jeff:

You are completely unqualified to make that assessment

I concur ;). But it’s just like my opinion, man.

JUnderhill:

I did go to an extreme with my comments and that was due to the massive doom and gloom on the internet over TT2, not necessarily with folks here but rather the general theme in comments elsewhere. I admit there has to be some impact to the bottom line although I think it is much less, and also more of a temporary thing than a permanent lost revenue type thing.

All good, man. Thanks for being a rarity on the internet: reflecting and tempering comments. I don't disagree with your thoughts that this is not a disaster -- it's recoverable, especially if they can get it up and running reliably for a good chunk of the season and down the road, for sure.

I suspect what drives some people to quasi-hysteria is this all looked so promising for that first week: great ride experience, reliable operations, especially for such a problematic ride.

The greatest disappointments and bitterness sometimes spring from an initial sense of great hope and expectation.

Jeff:

Are there different rules for Zamperla? It was so bad for Intamin that they got several more rides at the same park after Dragster.

Well, I sure hope so! As you well know, CF went with Intamin in large part because of Kinzel, who prioritized cheap rides over reliable ones. There's no indication that CF, or anyone else in the industry, uses the same "strategy" today.

And regardless, is "we're no better than Intamin" really what Zamperla should be aiming for? I sure as hell hope not.

TTD 120mph:
this train issue

Agreed that in this case noting that it's a manufacturer's issue is perfectly fine, because the issue, by all accounts, is with the ride itself. The locker thing, not so much, but perhaps I should let that horse corpse rest in peace (narrator: "he wouldn't").

Anecdotally, we have paused our plans for our almost annual trip to CP this year until we get some solid word on TT2. If there are no signs that it will be open by the end of July, we probably won't be going and instead will go somewhere else with something new for us to do. That doesn't mean we don't love Cedar Point (got engaged on the beach) and absolutely have to have something new there for us to experience, but with some of the cutting measures and price increases I've seen so far this year (admittedly I haven't been there...) we will most likely spend our money elsewhere. Sure we are a tiny drop in the bucket of guests, but we aren't current pass holders and typically stay on site and spend a lot. I'm sure there are others out there like us.

I don’t feel safe. It would be irresponsible of me to let my kids ride Top Aluminum 2. They should NOT be strapped to some old Pepsi cans going 120mph toward a top hat.

Plague on Wheels:

Zamperla needs to take its ‘L’ for making the trains out of aluminum.

Unless it wasn't Zamperla that wanted aluminum. In most cases, the client decides how much they want to spend and how they spend it. They likely had options from least expensive to most expensive, so it could have been Cedar Fair who got Zamperla into this situation. Not that we will ever know but just as much shade should be give to Cedar Fair.

I'm pretty sure that the wheel bogies themselves are steel, while the rest of the train chassis and sub-components are billet aluminum.

Also found a video talking a little bit more about the wheel assemblies if anyone is interested (starts at the 1:20 mark):

After looking at it a little more, the assembly design isn't new to the Lightning trains (design has been used on most of their recent coasters), but with the TT2 trains, it appears that they simply "stretched" the design out to accommodate the larger wheels needed for the ride. The core spine of the bogie itself generally looks pretty reasonable in size on other trains and even the example Lightning train, but on TT2 the elongated structure of everything looks pretty "flimsy" (for lack of a better word) and appears to be the failure point so far.

Anectodally, the park has felt busy so far this season and there have already been at least two Saturdays post-TT2 closure announcement that have felt July-August Saturday crowded. The resorts aren't mass mailing me passholder discount deals either, which they have in the past during slower Junes. I think they're doing okay.

Plague on Wheels:
I don’t feel safe. It would be irresponsible of me to let my kids ride Top Aluminum 2. They should NOT be strapped to some old Pepsi cans going 120mph toward a top hat.

Were you bullied by aluminum when you were young?

He probably pronounces it the British way out of spite.

Well looks like I’ll be moving my trip to August then. J already gave me his opinion but could I get a few others please? It’s not that I don’t trust the one answer I got I just have OCD and have a hard time deciding. So if a few more regular CP guests could take a moment and look at my question I’d appreciate it.

https://forums.pointbuzz.co...le-#633381

Hoping top thrill 2 is open this year because my American Airline credit won’t extend to next summer. I’ll be out 800 bucks if I don’t go anywhere.

Ironic that the ride directly underneath Top Aluminum 2 is made of Iron, and it’s cycling today without issue. Just something to think about….

CoasterLine:

After looking at it a little more, the assembly design isn't new to the Lightning trains (design has been used on most of their recent coasters), but with the TT2 trains, it appears that they simply "stretched" the design out to accommodate the larger wheels needed for the ride.

This is one of the best observations I've seen, and it helps to see that demo train they showed at IAAPA in 2022 (I assume that's going to Vancouver). When you look at a wider range of rides throughout history (among outboard wheels), the robustness of the assemblies vary wildly. Look at the Schwarzkopf rides, they have "bricks" around the track. Small mouse rides have barely anything by comparison. The perpendicular frame on these definitely seems elongated, and probably less than three inches wide at its narrowest point. It looks like that's attached to the axle that allows the bogie to pitch up and down. That axel is in line with the hubs of the road wheels, whereas on the 2022 train that axel is near the top of the road wheels. All that to say, the bracket to the guide and upstop wheels is much longer, which to me means it won't be as rigid as a short one.