Dive Coaster coming to Cedar Point?

What's wrong with flyers?

CoasterCam said:

A bigger dive coaster would be great but I am perfectly fine with one that is a little taller than Griffon or Sheikra and it really wouldn't matter to me if it was smaller. I'm sure this is not the common opinion, but I feel that a dive coaster is what would draw me into the park more than any other type.

Gatekeeper is the 4th or 5th best coaster in the park in my opinion. It is hard for me to see why people hate on it. Many think that X-Flight is the best wing coaster out there but I completely fail to see this. I can't speak for the others but after having been on both of these in 2013, I don't think X-Flight even holds a candle to Gatekeeper.

It's hard to go wrong with a B&M IMO, besides flyers.

Absolutely agree with your first paragraph. Dive coasters are right up there with Intamin Mega-Lite (or Skyrush) and a new Rocky Mountain Coaster at the top of my wishlist. I've never been on a dive coaster, and even in this thread, have heard that the first drops are pretty spectacular. The proposed one is taller, faster, longer, and has more inversions than those... and there's only two other ones within the 50 nearest states, so I don't think anyone has to worry about finding a rough equivalent anytime soon.

GateKeeper is my fourth favorite coaster in the park as well, but I find myself riding it more than any other major coaster at the Point. I didn't like X-Flight quite as much either, but I enjoyed both.

Flyers are really cool coasters and a great concept and all but I just find them to be really uncomfortable, especially the pretzel loops. Now if B&M were to build one with out a pretzel loop, that would be a lot better, IMO. I understand that people like the pretzel loops because they are forceful, but I don't like that force if it just shoves you into the ground. I actually hold Vekoma flyers in higher opinion. I don't like how the B&M ones leave you in the "flying" position while waiting on the brake run.

CoasterKyle1121 said:

What's wrong with flyers?

They suck. :)

Seriously though, they're an uncomfortable gimmick. They have to limit how "interesting" they can be as far as layout because of the perceived intensity you feel in that prone position. Not a fan.

Tatsu disagrees with all of you flyer haters. ;)

Yeah, that's what people say, and I admit I haven't been on that one (and frankly, if I never get to Six Flags Magic Mountain, it won't be the end of the world... I hate LA).

I haven't tried Tatsu either, but Manta anyone? I thought it was by far the most comfortable of the B&M's and the layout was fun, unique and thrilling, especially for a ride it's size. I was afraid I wouldn't like it, but I was lucky to hit the park on a very slow day and I wound up riding it many times. I can't say the same for the Superman clones, that's for sure.

Embarrassed to say that I haven't been on that one either, despite working for the company.

I honestly don't see what is so great about dark rides. I don't find them to be very exciting.

I have been on one of the Superman: Ultimate Flight clones and if that's the only flyer you have been on, then it's definitely not the ride that will wow you for that type of coaster. However, it goes without saying that flying coasters, sometimes, just aren't the cats pajamas for everyone. I've been lucky enough to have gone on both Manta and Tatsu. And while Manta is a very enjoyable ride, Tatsu kicks all kinds of butt. The landscape it's built on makes it quite the spectacle. I hear the "Starry Sky Ripper" flyer in China kicks them all out of the water......but I'll never get the opportunity to get on that.

Now, I've been on Sheikra and I'll be getting a chance to ride Griffon in April. I loved Sheikra and I'm sure I'll enjoy Griffon so if there were to be one within a 2 hour drive from me, I wouldn't be complaining. :P

I agree with the comment about preferring Vekoma flyers over B&M's. I was on the original Flying Dutchman at whatever Geauga Lake was called at that time, and I thought it was a better overall experience than Manta.

I also agree that flyers pretty much suck. They are uncomfortable and as such I don't find them fun. On Manta in particular I find that big loop that flips you onto your back to be extremely uncomfortable. I don't ride it anymore.

If people stopped riding Mantis in large numbers because of the marginal discomfort of the stand-up position, I think a flyer at CP would experience a much greater drop-off in popularity.

RE: Gatekeeper, I don't hate it, but I don't find it all that thrilling. As such, I am not excited by it as a major thrill ride addition to the park. I enjoy it the way I might enjoy a new attraction like a log flume. Nice to have, cool and fun, but not especially thrilling. As what was ostensibly supposed to be the next great CP coaster, it was a little disappointing. The elements seem calm and gradual. The gimmick of sitting to the side of the rails is not all that much different an experience from sitting in the front row of a B&M inverted. I think of Gatekeeper kind of like I think of Iron Dragon. I don't ride it for thrills, but it is a fun, family-friendly experience whose strength is in the view as opposed to the thrills.

I think X/X2 is a MUCH more thrilling ride. I think wingriders are a copout knockoff of a 4th dimension. By fixing the seats in place, B&M avoided all of the mechanical issues that initially plagued the Arrow 4D, but they also eliminated what made it great.

The wingrider without the 4D rotating seats to me is the same as if B&M had decided to build their inverted coasters without loops.

I've never once thought B&M's wing rider was an attempt to cure what ails the 4D.

DA20Pilot said:

I don't want to see CP just putting in rides that are run of the mill in that you can experience a rough equivalent at any major park. I'd like to see them continue to install rides that raise the bar and whose experience is substantially better than anything else, as in Magnum and MF.

I'm my opinion, gatekeeper does not do that.

While I generally agree with you when looking at the ride dynamics in a vacuum, I think the front gate flyover adds a ton to the overall experience, in the same way that the stadium setup at Dragster makes a completely boring, forgettable ride more entertaining.

DA20Pilot said:

I think wingriders are a copout knockoff of a 4th dimension. By fixing the seats in place, B&M avoided all of the mechanical issues that initially plagued the Arrow 4D, but they also eliminated what made it great.

Aside from vehemently disagreeing with the "knockoff" comment, "eliminating what made it great" also makes the coaster accessible to the significant number of folks who cannot tolerate spinning rides.

djDaemon said:

Aside from vehemently disagreeing with the "knockoff" comment, "eliminating what made it great" also makes the coaster accessible to the significant number of folks who cannot tolerate spinning rides.

Fair enough... Gatekeeper is definitely less intense than X2, and therefore accessible to a wider audience.

Which segues into a point I have failed to make in my past comments on the subject- I'm all for CP adding less thrilling and more family-oriented rides here and there- they most certainly need to cater to that segment of their market.

I am just hoping that they are not doing so to the exclusion of adding an envelope-shattering thrill machine every so many years as well. Time will tell.

RCMAC said:

I've never once thought B&M's wing rider was an attempt to cure what ails the 4D.

I don't think B&M wingriders are attempts to cure what ails/ailed Arrow 4Ds either.

They didn't try to re-engineer the rack and pinion mechanism to rotate the cars. Rather, they copped out and effectively said "forget the rotation. It's too much trouble, we're not going to go there."

The reason I call it a knockoff is, to me they tried to take a significant portion of the gimmick (the seats out to the sides of the rails) and replicate that aspect of a 4D, while skipping the troublesome seat-rotation part of it.

I do think of a wingrider as a poor man's 4D.

I would love to see a flyer. A dive would also be cool. Is a flying diver possible?

DA20Pilot said:

"forget the rotation. It's too much trouble, we're not going to go there."

That seems like an unreasonably cynical point of view. Alternatively, perhaps they said "spinning seats will be add a lot of maintenance cost, and will also significantly reduce the size of the audience".

Furthermore, B&M doesn't tell parks what to purchase. Rather than B&M being a bunch of wimpy, half-assed gimmick-copiers, perhaps their customers don't want a crappy gimmick ride with a limited audience.

coasterblu said:
I honestly don't see what is so great about dark rides. I don't find them to be very exciting.

I feel the exact same way. However, what I have come to believe, is that dark rides are supposed to be geared toward the family audience since many feel family rides are what Cedar Point lacks. If that's the case, I'm all for one.

The only thing that would even remotely concern me is the placement of one. I wish to not see another building/structure potentially block such a beautiful view as Disaster Transport did.

djDaemon said:

While I generally agree with you when looking at the ride dynamics in a vacuum, I think the front gate flyover adds a ton to the overall experience, in the same way that the stadium setup at Dragster makes a completely boring, forgettable ride more entertaining.

I agree, proximity and interaction with people/queues can easily takes a ride to the next level. Look at Fury 325, that will be exciting for Carrowind's entrance, moreso than Gatekeeper if only because it'll likely be faster and louder. The same can be said about Kings Island's Stunt Coaster how it dips under the queue. Also with Millennium screaming by the last leg of the queue. And, of course, who doesn't still get a rush when Corkscrew flies over your head on the midway?

djDaemon said:

DA20Pilot said:

"forget the rotation. It's too much trouble, we're not going to go there."

That seems like an unreasonably cynical point of view. Alternatively, perhaps they said "spinning seats will be add a lot of maintenance cost, and will also significantly reduce the size of the audience".

Furthermore, B&M doesn't tell parks what to purchase. Rather than B&M being a bunch of wimpy, half-assed gimmick-copiers, perhaps their customers don't want a crappy gimmick ride with a limited audience.

B&M have a history of shying away from technologies outside of their core comfort zone. Refusing to build launches for many years, for example. Refusing to build a Giga for many years, for another example. So, I'm basing my perception on a pattern. I understand their reasons for being this way- ostensibly they don't want to tarnish their reputation for reliability. But it is what it is.

And, I doubt their reasoning for eliminating the seat rotation was to increase the potential audience for the ride. According to published figures I saw last year when I was at Magic Mountain, X2 is consistently one of the most popular if not the most popular rides in the entire park.