coaster final height

Carsten16, not a wise decision to post copyrighted material here, and second, where on the website is that?

-Mikey

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Let your mind go...and your body will follow...

Refined calculations on current progress:

Basic laws of geometry state that if a camera is at a given height above the ground, and the "horizon" is at "infinity" (i.e. a distance many times that of "near" objects) then the horizon creates a plane at the altitude of the camera.

Having said this, the Power Tower camera http://www.cedarpoint.com/public/inside_park/webcam/powertower.cfm appears to be at approximately the 240-foot level. This can be confirmed by where the horizon intersects Millennium Force in the shot. The horizon intersects at the north end of the 4th tower of MF's lift hill, a point which is approximately 77.4% of MF's full height of 310 feet, or roughly the 240-foot level.

Carrying this a step further, the horizon intersects #16's tower between the 4th and 5th catwalk. Given that the footers for the tower are approximately 1 foot high ( as seen in http://www.Setecx.com/pics/cp102602const/imagepages/PICT0270.html ) some basic geometric relationships can be calculated.

If the "horizon" is taken to be the top the trees, then it intersects #16's tower 74% of the distance from the 4th to the 5th catwalk. This makes the spacing between the catwalks as (240 ft - 1 ft for the footer = 239 ft divided by 4.74 levels = 50.42 feet per level).

If the "horizon" is taken to be the center of the trees, then it intersects #16's tower 63% if the distance from the 4th to the 5th catwalk. This makes the spacing between the catwalks at (239 feet divided by 4.63 levels = 51.62 feet per level).

Taking an average of about 51 feet per level, we have the following values:
Top of Level 1: 52 ft
Top of Level 2: 103 ft
Top of Level 3: 154 ft
Top of Level 4: 205 ft
Top of Level 5: 256 ft (current height)
Top of Level 6: 307 ft
Top of Level 7: 358 ft

Add to this the top hat for the final height. Given the proportions of each level's height to width, the south face of the tower is approximately 97 feet across. Assuming too that the curve for the top hat will be circular (as opposed to parabolic) then it will add another (97 feet divided by 2 = 48.5 feet) to the height for a grand total of 406.5 feet.

Using the maximum and minimum values for each level yields a total height anywhere between 401 feet and 412 feet. Again, these numbers are approximate because the "exact" horizon cannot be discerned in the webcam shot. But I think it is accurate enough to show that the completed tower will in fact exceed the 400-foot level.

Also, if anyone wants to do some further calculations, the distance from the base of the Power Tower to the base of #16's tower is approximately 1080 feet (based on an earlier aerial photo measuring #16's length in units of Witches Wheels).

Additional details: the tower's primary columns are approximately 3 feet in diameter, its horizontal members are approximately 1.5 feet in diameter, and the diagonals are approximately 1 foot in diameter.

Also, the track appears to be the same gage as Intamin AG used for Millennium Force, which is approximately 0.9 to 1.0 meters.

Looking forward to blasting off in the front seat of #16 this May!!!! That will be so cool!!!

There is a logic flaw in your calculations. Cedar Point would never build a coaster just a few feet short of a record.

I'm thinking you're close, but there is no way Cedar Point builds it less than 415, which is what Superman:The Escape at SFMM is listed at.

Mach1-

Nice calculations. I can't disprove them at all. I can only say I disagree. I don't have anything to back up my disagreement other than a "gut feeling," so if I'm wrong in saying that it'll top 400' I do fully expect an "I told you so" e-mail from you, okay? :)

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- John
*I resign from the game of life if I have to play with stupidity.
*We're getting screwed in the rear two coasters in a row.
*** This post was edited by Michael Darling 11/18/2002 11:19:23 AM ***

My figures were based on the Top Hat being circular. If it is parabolic then it will be higher.

Just wanted to pin down the current height, and give us a handle on measuring what we are seeing.

I welcome the comments! :)

Bravo. Very good analysis. The train of thought is a good one. However, there is only one thing I question. If the camera were 240' up it would be mounted in a spot where the seat carriages would hit it when the ride operates. I believe that only the camera angle was changed when it was aimed toward #16, not its location. In the lower left corner of the webcam picture there appears to be part of the tower structure. I looked at early screen captures (10/22) and that same surface area is there. Does anyone know where on PT the cam is mounted? I thought it was on the bridgework around the top just below the arches. I seem to recall someone saying the bottom of the arches were 260' up. Is that true? Wouldn't that also put the cam about 260' up? Mach1, how would that affect your calcs? Nevertheless, a good job!

We're within a couple feet in our estimates on the spacing of the levels. The final height could very well be someplace between my 450' estimate and yours. I hope so, and the higher the better!!

Cedar Point's specs on Power Tower states that there are (4) 240' towers, topped with 60' arches to make a total of 300'. This would put the top of the cross members (at the base of the arches) at 240'. In other words, some of the 240' is taken up by the cross members and not available to the ride's launch area. It is along the top of the north cross member that I believe (my opinion only) that the camera is located.

I thought also thought that the point where the cars rest is 240, and the crossmembers are the start of the 60 ft arches. This would probably account for a 10 ft difference.

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Launch: Tophat: Twistage: Brakes...

...Denial is an ugly thing.

Mach...

Wow. Neat concept-- it has taken me a while, but it totally makes sense. Freakin infinity is weird.

And regardless of how accurate it ends up being, I think it is the best argument I have heard yet in terms of determining height.

-albert

Thanks for making those calculations, Mach, although they are past the 5th level (in fact, the supports now extend slightly past the 6th level, they just haven't added the catwalk yet), so I would say that based on that concept, the current height is around MF's height, if not slightly taller.

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L-TH-TW-B... "Meh"
Wicked twists: 11

From his calculations the highest the tower would reach is 412 feet. Don't forget that the track is slightly more than 3 feet tall (0.9-1.0 meters). This will make people that want a record happy because the tower's height would total 415 feet or more (I don't care too much, but just to let people know).

The 0.9 to 1.0 meters is the gage of the track, in other words, the horizontal distance between the rails, although the vertical "thickness" of the trusses would be roughly this same dimension. :)

Hey all, Long time reader, first time poster. Yea I know that sounds pretty lame, but you see like the rest of us, the batteries are dead in my graphing calculator, my protractor is bend, and my slide rule just slid. Could there not be a better way? For example, the FCC “requires owners to register certain antenna structures (generally those more than 60.96 meters (200 feet) in height or located near an airport)”… Millennium Force (obviously) and Power Tower (correct me if I’m wrong) both have FAA approved lighting at their summit. Now the FCC has a nice searchable database available at http://wireless.fcc.gov/antenna/, which unfortunately didn’t turn up any hits. I also checked the FAA’s website and turned up empty handed. Yes I realize neither MF or PT are antennae, but hey it was worth a shot. However, there must be some sort of regulatory procedure governing such structures, other than local building permits. Whether it falls under the jurisdiction of the FAA, FCC, or DOT, you just can’t put up a 300+ foot tower without some bureaucrat knowing about it. I’m thinking there must be a database out there somewhere with information on the height of #16, searchable by its owner. If anyone has any ideas, lets hear it. I miss playing Tetris on my Ti-89.

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Add to this the top hat for the final height. Given the proportions of each level's height to width, the south face of the tower is approximately 97 feet across. Assuming too that the curve for the top hat will be circular (as opposed to parabolic) then it will add another (97 feet divided by 2 = 48.5 feet) to the height for a grand total of 406.5 feet.

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Nice to see a reasonable estimate that did not originate from the keebler(r) elf in someone's sleep...or similar

Just a note...you are correct, the tophat will be parabolic, the evidence being these stairs. Notice the left most stairway (obviously the peak) has a different radius of curvature than the two stairs to the right. If it were circular, these radii would be the same...by the laws of geometry. Please don't argue this one.

BTW...those who keep guessing that the catwalks are nice round imperial values appart might want to consider that the rest of the planet uses metric (yes, this includes switzerland) and it is far likely these will be nice round metric numbers (i.e. 10 base). 15 meters=49.21 ft...15.5m=51.04ft (pretty close to the guess from the quoted post)

And don't rely TOO much on measuring stuff from webcams, cheap lenses do funny things to straight lines. Mind you, it's a far better guess than most of the rationale I have read so far. (like anyone who 'eyed' it's height last time they road MF...ect)

Then why are all other coasters built by oversees companies for U.S. parks manufactured in emperical numbers?

It's all about the customer and what they want it to be. I don't think that they slate MF as being 94.41624365... meters tall. They go by feet because it's for an American park. They go by metric numbers for other countries.

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Launch: Tophat: Twistage: Brakes...

...Denial is an ugly thing.

I used to work in the amusement industry (bumper cars) and my boss is a rich bigwig with a plane. The last time I talked to him, he told me that the FAA had released a notice that there would be a 400+ foot obstacle at Cedar Point in the near future. It wasn't anything specific, but he did say 400+.

Shortly after the 2002 season had started, this dude I hadn't talked to in a while said that they were building a 400+ ft. coaster that goes @ 125+mph. Of course I didn't believe him because of the 2-year plan, but next time I see him I'll have to give him credit!

The 2-year what?

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Turkeys, the only animal smarter than man

I think Cedar Point is Financing this new ride. Cant pay it off at once. Anybody know how much intrest they're paying? ;)

It will most likely be 400+ feet and go 125 Mph

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- Dennis

If the pic somewhere above is of the top catwalk, then it must be parabolic. Plus it makes sense for it to be parabolic for a couple reasons.

First, xcelerator has a parabolic tophat, and that is the closest thing to whatever this is at the moment to my knowledge.

second, the physics of it make a parabolic top a lot safer than a circular top. Consider it the same way with loops. Circular loops need a speed of approximately 1.4 times that of a modern day loop (forgot proper name - convex maybe?). This causes a lot higher G forces on the rider. Some of the first looping rides had upwards of 8G's on the loops because they were exactly circular.

For a circular top hat, the centrifugal acceleration outwards would be a lot more than is wanted at the beginning of the slope going out of the upwards vertical. If the top were parabolic, as the train slows down at around 10m/s squared (gravity plus the assumed friction), initially it is moving somewhat fast. Since there is less of a change in slope of the train, it works out to be less force on the rider, and more desceleration of the train. As it approaches the top, which in the ideal situation would have a velocity of 0 directly at the top (not practical in real rides though), the curve is at it's greatest, and since there is a lower speed, this is safe. However, if the curve were to remain constant, then it would be difficult to make a curve that big, which is around 50 feet high, be safe for people.

If they have the ability to work out this stuff exactly, it is entirely possible to have the parabola of the top hat be set to something that compares directly with the desceleration of the train, so that the force is constant.

Put simply, as the trian slows down, force decreases, but the radius of this would decrease at a rate so that the negative G's (or whatever G's are acting on the train) remain more or less constant, so instead of feeling jerked around, you feel a constant light lifting off your seat, until you plummet back 400 feet or so to earth.