Big Dipper to CP?

Why would they keep open the ride side? It was failing. Dominator, the best coaster in the park was walk on front row in the middle of the summer. That should not happen. I waited longer in line for that big funnel slide than I did for all the rollercoasters I rode combined times the number of times I rode them. I only waited like 25 minutes for the waterslide. How is that going to make money?

Cedar Point is tough competition especially for how close it was to Geauga Lake. The water park at Geauga was MUCH better than Soak City and that is the reason Wildwater Kingom will be successful. People from northern Ohio can go to Geauga Lake for a water park and Cedar Point for rollercoasters. Its just like what people do in Michigan with Michigan's Adventure.

There is a third option that gener neglected: Their intent was good when they bought GL park but the fact that the "damage" was worse than they expected when they got in there PLUS the Paramount Purchase made the park expendable.

Again, I heard the investor calls last year when the pressure was coming about Geauga Lake. I still think the decision was made earlier...but Jeff is right in that it doesn't really matter a great deal.

gener said:
The problem now is that Cedar Fair has moved swiftly to take away much of the chance to bring public pressure to change the current course of action.

What does public pressure have to do with the actions of a private company? No amount of pressure would have changed the outcome. Your argument is irrational.

The thing is that Geauga Lake was still a viable park, regardless of what they what to feed us.

Is that why attendance was so awesome?

...or they knew that this was the plan all along. After all they only gave the park a few years and made all real capital improvements to the water park. So the choice is the conspiracy or incompetence.

Incompetance is buying a business to close it and taking a hit in the process. Closing the park in any scenario is not a winning option. This argument is also irrational.

Well, I'll stop short of saying that public pressure cannot affect a private company's decisions.

Cleveland Browns fans inundate the NFL offices with faxes, letters, emails, etc when their beloved franchise is whooshed away to Baltimore. They don't get their franchise back but the NFL makes an unprecedented decision to keep the team name and history in Cleveland and guarantees a new team by 1999...which they delivered on.

Television networks are regularly petitioned to keep shows they are intent on cancelling and in some cases those petitions pay off. America's Most Wanted is one well known example. I believe X Files is another and, if I had time to research it I could probably come up with some more.

I don't believe Dick bought GL to close it. I do believe that the motivation changed after the Paramount purchase. The $1 billion they spent on those parks made the less than $100 million on GL a much bigger priority. And GL was the first and obvious way they were going to try and cut down on some of the debt.

The question is how they handled/are handling the PR aspect of it. You just cannot ignore the fact that the Cleveland/Akron areas are major markets for Cedar Point (and even King's Island to an extent).

Chief Wahoo said:

Television networks are regularly petitioned to keep shows they are intent on cancelling and in some cases those petitions pay off. America's Most Wanted is one well known example. I believe X Files is another and, if I had time to research it I could probably come up with some more.

More recently - Family Guy.

But also, you usually hear reports of this kind of stuff within weeks, even a month or two after the announcement of a show's cancellation. The most I've seen are a few online petitions (hardly valid) and a lot of bitching on internet message boards. I've not heard of a massive letter writing campaign, or even anyone who is approaching the situation with a level head (present company excluded).

What I have heard a lot about is picketing Cedar Point (I guess that would be valid, if enough people showed up), or yelling at DK or BS whenever they are seen at the park and calling them liars and snakes. Hardly a level-headed approach.

Those are good example, but irrelevant to this situation. This was going to happen regardless once they made up their mind that GL was a loser. I also have it on good authority, and you'll have to take my word for it because I'm not going to tell you who I heard it from, that the Paramount acquisition had nothing to do with this. Not acquiring PP wouldn't have made GL any more of a loser. Having to reposition the park and sell off or move assets is far less desirable than the park working.

And again, I'll say there is no PR angle. CP and KI are not going to be impacted by any of this. Again, can't say why, but the strong fall should give you an idea of why I think that.

GL may have closed either way, but I think they would not have had to make the decision THIS season if either the Paramount purchase didn't happen or the Paramount purchase hadn't led to sluggish results thus far.

And, I don't know how much of the failure was as a result of "it wouldn't have worked regardless" or "we certainly didn't do everything we could have done to prevent the failure."

One of the PR blunders I failed to mention previously had to do with Cedar Fair's handling of the union fiasco. In the rust belt, heavily unionized NE Ohio, that certainly didn't do them any favors with the potential park-going public.

I certainly don't discount any of what Jeff said. Maybe NE Ohio isn't travelling to Cedar Point in great numbers whether or not GL exists. This weekend my wife and I marvelled at how many seats were empty during the Indians/Yankees series (seen on tv unfortunately). 10 years ago there were no tickets to buy. The economy there is obviously in peril.

Unions are stupid anyways.

Couldn't disagree more. Unions are largely responsible for the fact that you likely work in a safe environment today. What they have done is driven up salaries (good for employees = bad for employers = bad for former employees) and that has had some harm but there is no doubt that the American working environment is safer as a result of unions.

What do any of the PR blunders you bring up have to do with having any lasting effect on CP?

CP_Obsessed_Freak1987 said:
Unions are stupid anyways.

Wow. That was truly insightful.

You couldn't be further from the truth. As stated above, unions ensure safer working enviornments and also help keep job security...they stand up for employees when the company decides to leave them in the dust, or ignore them completely.

Are all unions like this? no. But most are responsible for having positive impacts in the fields of construction and industrial labor.

Out of curiosity, when was Geagua Lake's "hey-day"? I mean, growing up (I grew up in a town called Defiance, Ohio) we ventured to Cedar Point or Kings Island. In fact, I never knew Geagua Lake existed until maybe late high-school days (1994, 1995), but even then knew nothing about the park.

Was it always just a place where locals treaded? Again, all I have to go on are my personal experiences there, the year before X-Flight was moved; we visited twice in July and the park barely had a pulse.

The PR blunders didn't affect CP at all. I never said they did. But I certainly think they adversely affected the overall transition at Geauga Lake. Were those blunders the reason GL failed? Of course not. But I think they certainly are a part of the overall issue.

And, in regards to the union issue didn't the union in question threaten to boycott Cedar Point b/c they were unhappy with Cedar Fair's handling of the Geauga Lake situtation? I know that is like the Baptist's boycotting WDW in terms of affect on the bottom line but when you look at the short history of Cedar Fair's handling of Geauga Lake I don't think you can overlook those things.

Was the economy crappy in NE Ohio? Yes.

Did Cedar Fair make some early gaffes that weren't necessarily endearing? Yes.

Did the decisions to remove rides affect attendance (even though the removals might have made complete sense)? Probably.

Did firing long time, capable people who had a history with Geauga Lake hurt? Probably.

Did Six Flags do more irrevocable harm with that property than anyone imagined? Yes.

Did the absence of Sea World hurt more than anyone imagined? Yes.

I get all of that. But, I do believe there are legitimate criticisms of the way Geauga Lake was handled which go to the greater issue of how the current leadership is leading.

To the previous poster's question I think Geauga Lake hit it's stride in the late 80's through the mid 90's. The introduction of the Wave/Boardwalk Shores, the Raging Wolf Bobs, and Turtle Beach (easily the nicest children's water play area in ANY waterpark in the country) really put GL on the map.

CP_Obsessed_Freak1987 said:
Unions are stupid anyways.

But how cool would a Cedar Point Employees union be? We could be like "We want overtime or else we won't work" Then they'll be like "We'll hire new people" then we'll be like "Oh yeah? Who is going to teach those people how to run the rides" then they'll be like "Oh, true" then we'll be like "So how about that overtime pay" and then they'll be like "Possibly" then we won't work for a day and they'll be like "**** if we would have just given you overtime we wouldn't had to close the park and lost like a million dollars" so then we'll get overtime.

Its too bad that will never happen.

mk522 said:

CP_Obsessed_Freak1987 said:
Unions are stupid anyways.

Wow. That was truly insightful.

You couldn't be further from the truth. As stated above, unions ensure safer working enviornments and also help keep job security...they stand up for employees when the company decides to leave them in the dust, or ignore them completely.

Are all unions like this? no. But most are responsible for having positive impacts in the fields of construction and industrial labor.

Unions aren't the only ones that insure a safe working environment. Job security for workers pay way too much for doing little to nothing, too? I'm more talking in a sense about unions like UAW, for the car manufacturers.

Local 250 in Pittsburgh is manufacturing/food handlers. I was part of it when I worked in catering at Heinz Field and concessions at PNC Park. At the ballpark we were guaranteed to be paid for 6 hours when we swiped in, if the games were low attendance and we closed some stands or if they were rained out, we still got paid for 6 hours. We also got a little extra pay if we were a member, so even though everyone there wasn't union there were incentives.

Its too bad you guys couldn't afford the union dues.

My biggest problems with several unions is that they have become the thing they were meant to protect workers against. Not all of them are like this, and some still do good for the workers. But too many have become bloated corporations that work for their executives first.

Fair point Jugga. I know a lot of teachers here in Florida who are happy with their union. I know some that are not.

There are good and bad in all areas of life. If it just take a little of the bad, or a poor personal experience to pass judgment as a whole, blanket statements could be made for everything.

mk522 said:
As stated above, unions ensure safer working enviornments and also help keep job security...they stand up for employees when the company decides to leave them in the dust, or ignore them completely.

Or in the case of the auto industry, drive up the price of simple labor so high that the employers can't compete with overseas companies and have to layoff people. That's worked out really well. Guys making $80k for a job on the line is messed up. Not saying it isn't hard work, but it's not skilled labor.