Big Dipper to CP?

John, the horse being dead doesn't mean it can no longer be beaten.

The horse could be dead, autopsied, embalmed, cremated and buried 30 feet underground in a concrete and steel vault, and the crybabies will still find a way to beat it.

djDaemon said:
Who invests based on happy smiles, puppies and rainbows? Isn't the point of investing to make money?

Google.

djDaemon...I don't know you and have no idea what you consider to be your home park. But, if it closed would you be upset by it? Let me take it a step further. Would it only bother you for a few days? A week? A year?

Heck, Idora Park was my grandfather's home park and for years and years after it closed...up until his death...he talked about it, drove me out to see the SBNO coasters, etc. Was he a crybaby?

Down here in Florida a community was recently faced with one of it's neighborhood parks (playground, baseball fields, etc) being closed b/c there was no money to operate it. So, the neighborhood just could have sucked it up or they could have been "crybabies" and pitched a fit. Now, I wouldn't call them "crybabies" but they had valid reasons to be concerned that they were losing this park so they wrote letters to the newspapers, had tv news stations out in the neighborhood, etc.

Today it was reported that an anonymous donor gave $50,000 so that the park could operate through October, whereby the community in question would have time to consider other funding sources.

Now, Cedar Point is what I consider my "home park" even though I am down here in Florida. I visited as a kid, I worked there seasonally and full time. Heck, I met my wife there. So, if Cedar Point decided to close the park I would be upset. Geauga Lake was my home park for many years, and I also worked there, and seeing it closed hurts me personally and professionally. I'm a park enthusiast. I don't want to see ANY parks closed. Particularly parks that have a rich history...as does/did Geauga Lake.

Perhaps this Munch fellow had some personal, business type interest in the property. Fine. Maybe you can question his motives. But, let's not denigrate those who have not yet come to terms with their park being closed. And, let's not criticize them when they complain about the company that made the decision. There may well be lots of great reasons why Cedar Fair made the decision they did, with the timing they did, and with the questionable integrity they did. But, those reasons don't mean that people have to like it.

C'mon now, Chief. I'm not calling people who are upset about GL's closing crybabies. Never have.

The crybabies are the ones who can't let it go, and continue to suggest that shareholders should be worried (based on this BD situation), or that they're going to boycott or whatever.

And my home park was Boblo.

I think there's a difference between being upset and being consumed. There's some pretty hateful stuff being thrown around out there, to the point where I think some people may need professional help.

^^ - don't bring that up. The only good thing about the Boblo closing was that it was before the internet age.

And I think both of them have a good point. There's a difference between being upset (an understandable reaction) and being obsessed.

Well, I'm not privy to everything that is going on. Again, I'm pretty far removed from the situation. I'm sure there are people who perhaps are going over the edge with this. And, I don't think it is odd that they haven't let it go yet. In fact, the reality of the situation really is only hitting now that the park would be getting ready to reopen.

But, as a shareholder I am worried about things, not simply because of the Dipper situation, but that is certainly a small part of it. There is a pattern of decision making (which may or may not include the Dipper) that I think is worthy of being questioned. And, as I have said before, I think there is legitimacy to those concerns. The industrial shareholders have been more vocal the past couple of years. Kinzel spent an unusual amount of time/space in this year's annual report addressing the GL situation. I don't think those concerns are unfounded at all.

Exactly. I actually sympathize with those who grew up with the park, believe it or not. Everyone has seen changes occur to places that were relevant to them at some point in their lives, whether an amusement park or a playground or even a mall or whatever. Being remorseful about it being gone and even being upset or angry, to a degree, is completely understandable.

But a line is crossed when people start claiming the conspiracy crap, or talking about boycotting CF or that shareholders should be worried or what have you. That kind of talk is nothing more than illogical whining, and serves no purpose, other than to make them look silly and immature.

ADDED:
The shareholder concerns regarding the management of the CF chain, aside from the "they killed GL on purpose" crap, is obviously warranted and to be expected. Heck, if shareholders weren't questioning CF's management, I would be concerned.

JuggaLotus said:
Not sure when they lied about closing the park though, but that horse died a long time ago.

Of couse the horse died long ago, but its ghost is still around.

February 5th, 2007: Crain’s Cleveland Business ran an article entitled “Geauga Lakes New Twist” In it Jack Falfas was quoted as saying while Cedar Fair has removed the X-Flight coaster it isn't abandoning the park's ride side. Mr. Falfas also noted that Cedar Fair isn't abandoning the rides side of Geauga Lake: He notes that the company has invested in a lot of repainting and sprucing up of existing rides and has rebuilt the Raging Wolf Bobs coaster. He also says there are plans for new attractions, but wouldn't offer any details.

April 5, 2007: Sun News (or possibly the Plain Dealer) ran an article titled "Rumors of Geauga Lake's demise 'completely untrue.'" Cedar Fair officials stated that, despite the removals of X-Flight and Steel Venom, "the rumors of the demise of Geauga Lake, or that we're slowly phasing it out, are completely untrue" and "Geauga Lake is here to stay."

Late Summer 2007: Multiple people reported hearing Bill Spehn dismiss closing and/or ride removal rumors as something that was untrue or made up on the internet by a "teenage kid"

August 28, 2007: When WEWS Channel 5 ran a Geauga Lake web report titled "Will Local Amusement Park Get Rid of Coasters", the Cedar Fair response was that "it won't comment on speculation and rumors." Not an overt lie, but arguably a deceptive attempt to indicate everything was still OK, and one that may have lulled some people into passing up a last chance to visit the park.

September 13, 2007: Cedar Fair advertises "Geauga Lake" as one of the parks that a 2008 Platinum Pass can be used at in a full page ad in the Toledo Blade Thursday insert ("it will gain you admission all season long to Cedar Point, Geauga Lake, Kings Island, and every other park in the Cedar Fair chain!").

I think you guys are talking about 2 different reasons for shareholders being worried.

Chief - I agree (at least from what I've gathered here), there are some institutional issues that should give shareholders a reason to worry. For instance, management hanging on a bit longer than they should, the reliance on per-cap spending as an indicator and a harder to find work force at the flagship park.

DJ - the worry you seem to be talking about are the threats from some of the delusional that the closing of Geauga Lake is going to cause so many people to stop visiting all the CF parks that they will be severely hurt. This is just a little bit laughable. The shareholders don't have to worry on account of this happening.

EDIT: I started typing this before DJ's "added".

For clarity, this is the shareholder concern what I was calling rubbish:

OldCoasterLover said:
I think they just broke all their rules and if I had shares with this company I would be deeply concerned.

Well, if the other rumors are true, that the decision to close the park wasn't made until after the park closed for the season, does that make those all lies? Even the ad, which had probably been submitted a week or so before hand isn't a blatant lie in that light.

The one mis-handling I've thought all along was that they didn't give people a chance for one last visit. I just don't quite buy the intentional mis-direction take on things.

So which board member is Kaiser Sose?

I have various reasons why I feel that the decision was made last spring. If that is the case then it does make some of those comments "lies". Now, were they lies of necessity? Maybe.

And again, I don't question Cedar Fair right not because maybe they lied all last summer...or maybe there are sheninigans going on with the Dipper. I question the leadership of the company for these and many other things that have transpired.

What is the common denominator in all of these things? The current CEO and Board of Directors. And yes, they can have annual shareholder meetings anywhere. But I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to determine where the majority of their shareholders reside. I suspect it isn't on the West coast.

This kind of reminds me of coaches like Nick Saban and Bobby Petrino. They tell you that everything is fine, that they're "here to stay," when all along they have one eye looking in the other direction for other opportunities. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, and I have no idea how it went down, but it seems like CF probably didn't originally intend to close down the ride side, but they always had it in their minds as a backup plan just in case. I'm almost certain the official decision to close GL down came before the season closed, and they might have been able to make more money if they had announced it sooner, then maybe more people would have gone during the season to get their "goodbye visits."

Once again, I'm not theorying any conspiracies, I wasn't in Ohio when all of this went down, but I'm just giving sort of my two cents on what it kind of looks like from the outside.

When the GM walks me around the park in the early part of summer showing me what they've been spending money on to improve the park, I'm going to say that was not a show, and that no decision had been made to close the park. Regardless of the truth in that, what difference does it make anyway? That some people's feelings were hurt? I could care less. This keeps coming up over and over it has zero bearing on the viability of the place as a full blown amusement park. The company had no obligation to tell anyone of its intentions. Conneaut Lake has been saying for years it can't make it, telling anyone who would listen. How'd that work out for them?

Honestly, nothing about GL concerns me as a unit holder other than ditching the property as fast as possible and making the water park work. In a billion dollar company, this one property is like a rounding error in the bigger picture. The company's obligation to the unit holders is to ditch a business that brings down the bottom line, and that's exactly what they're doing. I'll be the first to give you a laundry list of things they've screwed up and done wrong (starting with buying this park in the first place), but divesting the assets and going water park only is not one of them.

The fact that, according to the auctioneer, the Big Dipper was for sale at auction contingent on Cedar Fair's approval of the buyer to me says that they have the right intentions for the ride. That's good enough for me.

Jeff said:
Conneaut Lake has been saying for years it can't make it, telling anyone who would listen. How'd that work out for them?

Not real well, and that's my home park. It's pretty crappy that the park is in the shape it is but it's just not viable anymore. I understand and accept that. Hell, my Grandparents made their living owning a restaurant and bar in Conneaut Lake, PA when CLP was in its prime. The restaurant is still in the family to this day and is struggling now that the park has closed. If anyone would be obsessing about a park closing it would be my family.

Seriously, get over the fact that Geauga Lake has closed. Last fall it was fresh and new and possibly upsetting for many, but now, as has already been said, it's on the edge of obsession and even a bit pathetic.

As for the rides, that's an even deeper issue. If you can't face the fact that the park closed, you're really going to need some therapy when they start to knock down the remaining rides that don't sell.

It makes me laugh every time someone tells those of us to "get over it". After all we wouldn't have Cedar Point today if people just got over it fifty whatever years ago.

The problem now is that Cedar Fair has moved swiftly to take away much of the chance to bring public pressure to change the current course of action. And let's face it, most people have better things to do than fight for an amusement park. It still doesn't stop me from wanting to vomit every time I think of the whole thing.

The thing is that Geauga Lake was still a viable park, regardless of what they what to feed us. I think it was true that the park was to big spatially for what it was drawing, but the choice could have been made to close the waterpark and concentrate the park in Geauga Lake. But that would have created an issue since all of the investment made by Cedar Fair was in that water park.

As for the conspiracy theorists, there's only two possible outcomes I can reach in the whole situation. One is that Cedar Fair screwed up the purchase and mismanaged the property just as SFI did, or they knew that this was the plan all along. After all they only gave the park a few years and made all real capital improvements to the water park. So the choice is the conspiracy or incompetence.

On topic, I would definately like to see both the Villian and the Big Dipper find new homes. And hopfully someone out there will see the value at the auction. It doesn't seem likely to me that either will find a home at Cedar Point.

^So, they should keep the side of the park open that nobody went to, yet close down the strikingly more popular side? To them, it's all about money. The waterpark will yield a higher revenue with lower expenses on maintenance and manpower. I really think that's all it boiled down to in the end.

^That's exactly right, as far as I can see. And, the waterpark still has plenty of room (I believe) for any future expansions. They have the potential to be competitive as far as one of the best outdoor waterparks, atleast in the USA. And that's if and only if Cedar Fair pursues that. I don't see this happening, but the waterpark itself will bring more money than the ride section will.