Big Dipper to CP?

needless quotation removed -J

I'm pretty surprised they haven't just replaced everyone with a robot by now. Robots don't need healthcare, they don't sleep, and they don't take vacations. Sure it would be an expensive initial investment but over time it would more than likely pay off.

^Dwight Schrute wouldn't like this idea. He would say that robots and humans can't peacefully co-exist.

Have you BEEN to a automobile plant lately? Many of the jobs ARE done by robot. But, you still need human hands for various tasks. There is no doubt that the auto industry is an example of one union dominated industry that is suffering mightily. Another idea? American automakers could design and build better cars.

The union has been pretty good to the professional athlete.

needless quotation removed -J

Oh I know. I'm sure almost all of the jobs people do can be replaced by robots though, since many of them just press buttons all day.

Well it's been good to professional athletes as far as them making more money than ever, but it's been awful for the fan. Guaranteed contracts ensure that many top-rated athletes don't give full effort every game, which isn't fair to the fans who paid too much money to see them play. Football is the only sport without guaranteed contracts (and is probably the one that should have them the most given the amount of injuries), and lo and behold, the NFL is the most popular professional league. Why? They play hard and earn their salaries. Plus, they are the only professional league not to have work stoppage in the last 20 years. Fans have resented the lockouts/holdouts in the NBA, MLB, and NHL, and all three of those leagues have struggled to recover as a result.

So while unions have gotten those guys paid, fans might not appreciate it so much. At least I know I don't.

^^We don't all press buttons all day. Some of us do more important things...like surfing the net, and posting on PB!!! ;)

Fans SAY they don't like it...but they don't back that up with their actions. Gambling on sports is as big now as ever. TV contracts continue to increase. Stadiums are doing relatively well.

Sure football is the most popular sport. They have less than 20 games a year and short attention span Americans can keep up from training camp to Super Bowl.

I suppose you have a point there. I listen to ESPN Radio a lot, and all I ever hear on there when they talk about stuff like that is fans calling in and berating how overpaid players are. But, most of the time you just hear about players who make too much money and aren't playing well. People might say A-Rod is overpaid, but he's a killer on the diamond so everyone kinda looks the other way. Barry Zito was one of the best pitchers in baseball, and he got a monster contract, but now since he's garbage he's considered the most overpaid pitcher in baseball.

Funny--in Japan they have lifetime employment and Nissan, Toyota, etc seem to be doing better than non-union Saturn. Perhaps quality of management (not depending on SUV sales when gas is $3+ per gal) counts for something.

BTW, the reason the NFL doesn't (officially, anyway) guarantee contracts is no company will insure an NFL contract--unlike other sports.

So, does this mean a unionized company is buying The Big Dipper?

As I said, Jeff, there are some unions out there that don't provide benefit for the greater good.

There are, however, still many unions that do provide great benefits for workers. I was more pointing out that merely saying unions are stupid without backing it up with any logical reasoning was uncalled for.

But I agree with you on the auto industry part...I think that's brought about the downfall of Michigan and NE Ohio altogether, unfortunately.

I personally believe that unions were a godsend about 100 years ago, and even through a lot of the 20th century. They helped bring about a lot of workplace reform and workers now should be very grateful for the efforts of those unions. However, the idea of a union has become a little outdated, although they still can do some good. Since we have so many governmental programs protecting workers and businesses now (because of the efforts of unions), it just seems like they aren't nearly as necessary anymore.

RaceRinger said:
I personally believe that unions were a godsend about 100 years ago, and even through a lot of the 20th century.

I agree with that. I think that TODAY'S union is for the lazy worker. My boyfriend worked at a shop rebuilding machines. He would be sent to a lot of union, and non union shops to fix their machines. He told me many stories of how the union shops had the laziest workers. At one of the shops, he asked the parts guy to go get him a part from the tool room. It was a very big shop so they had hilos and go carts to get from one place to another. A trip that would have probably taken the guy a half an hour (there and back) at the most. My boyfriend didn't see the guy back for another 3 hours. Then when my boyfriend got back to his shop his boss said that the boss of the other shop was calling and complaining that my boyfriend was sitting around. Well what was he supposed to do? He didn't have the part he needed to finish the job.

Another story from a completely different shop was that my boyfriend would see this older man with a lot of seniority walk into the shop, punch in, walk out...and the guy wouldn't come back until the end of the day. He was getting paid for it, and bragging about it.

mk522 said:
There are, however, still many unions that do provide great benefits for workers. I was more pointing out that merely saying unions are stupid without backing it up with any logical reasoning was uncalled for.

I'd say it should be obvious.

Jeff,

Public pressure irrelevent? Isn't that why CP wasn't turned into the Fort Lauderdale of the north? If public pressure is great enough the government could step in as it did with CP. I'm sure there are other examples where public pressure changed the course of a private companies action to save a place of importance to the community.

Attendance was in the tank not because the park didn't have anything to offer. And it wasn't in the tank because of a lousy economy. (In fact the northeast Ohio economy is generally the same as it's been for quite some time. Until very recently unemployment was low. The production output of the region is growing. Incomes are generally increasing. And population is flat to marginally up.)

GLP was in the tank for a variety of reasons that had to do with how the park was run and because of some physical deficiencies created by both Worlds of Adventure and Cedar Fair.

First the consumer was greatly confused and turned off by the Worlds of Adventure concept. It's not as if the park experienced a long slow decline. Attendance plummeted in the 2001 season and never recovered. Someone asked when was the parks golden age. And I'd have to agree with the 80's and the introduction of the waterpark. But the peak of the park was 2000 and would have been a new "golden age" had things not changed so radically. 2000 was the peak for the park in term of attendance, revenue and profit. And it was the same product that was offered for decades with some serious capital improvements. The changes were so well received that season pass sales for the '01 season had already broken records before the anouncement of the purchase of Sea World. The old GLP was a product that was a more affordable alternative to the larger parks. It was a nice one day park that offered a good waterpark, excellent catering opportunites for groups and a little regional park with some nice rides. It was perceived as a good value, and that product still has a market in the region.

Cedar Fair failed in the respect that they never really tried to return to that concept. (at least from my perspective) It promised to bring back the old GLP. But they never did. People showed up to see what was different or brought back and found that nothing was ever changed. It was still the same park that was neglected in the waining years under SFI. A new waterpark went in but it was a mile away from the rest of the park and repalced a four year old park that was generally a decent product. The catering department was never put back together as it was before 2001. The price of food, games and souvineers were never brought back into line with the expectations of a smaller regional park.

Cedar Fair made big promises and zero deliveries on those promises.

Cheif Wahoo,

The complete flushing of the park of nearly all long standing GLP employees between 2001 and 2003 was certainly a huge problem to the operation of the park. But this wasn't Cedar Fair's work. The culture was completely erased and I feel was never replaced at all. Employees who cared for the park were replaced with unhappy people who were generally substandard preformers. And that ties back with my point about how poorly the park was managed.

On the other hand I still argue that Sea Worlds closing should not and did not have as big of an effect on the parks attendance as people want you to believe. The point is this. Before SWO closed the parks attendance was consistantly over 1.2 million annually. The majority of that attendance came from two sources that were not impacted by the co-location of the whale: season passes and group sales. Even assuming that those two types of guest accounted for only half (which it was most certainly more), it isn't irrational at all to assume that not everyone else came to the park just because SWO was across the lake. Back in 90's GLP was drawing at least 700k (conservativly) on its own. More than enough to support a park the size of old GLP.

lladnar,

It wasn't uncommon for ride lines to be short in GLP on hot days in the past. A significant part of the parks success was because of the waterpark. Depending on the day a short line at the "best" coaster in the park isn't a concern.

Also GLP wasn't ever in competition with CP. They catered to two different groups of people. If they were in direct competition then we would have seen a significant increase in the Points attendance as GLP's went down. Which didn't happen.

Finally (to noone in particular), while the costs of a waterpark are less than that of an amusement park, the potential revenue and bottom line profit are also less. A waterpark has shorter seasons and shorter operating days. Also people spend less when they're in a waterpark. It's not like most people walk around with a bunch of cash in you wallet and decide to stop and play a game or buy a drink while you're going from slide to slide. And if you don't believe me then explain to me why the units in the waterpark always ran lower per caps over the course of a season than the rest of the park. Even on the hottest of days in the old park, when the park was a ghost town outside the waterpark, and people only came to swim, the revenue collected didn't compare to average days. Even though the overall gate attendance was normal.

Cleaning up the old GLP, reintroducing decent guest service standards and a return to the traditional GLP market of customers would in my opinion lead to the greatest possible revenue stream for that property. A seasonal waterpark in Cleveland is something that limited potential in comparison. Even a paltry 700,000 attendance for a 65 acre park is enough revenue to support a good product that is manged properly. The problem isn't the concept, it was the implimentation.

Chief Wahoo said:
Another idea? American automakers could design and build better cars.

Despite popular opinion, Americans already do build better cars. In the last half-decade, their quality has actually surpassed that of the imports. Take a look at recalls/vehicles sold, and Toyota's recent quality implosion for evidence of that. Its a very simple concept - the more volume, the lower the quality. In 2004, for example, Toyota had four times as many recalls as they had in 2003. So no, its not some secret formula they have - its just a matter of lower volume, and that advantage is gone.

Not to mention that the mainstream source of opinion, Consumer Reports, has very questionable methods for testing. If you're a domestic automaker and you debut a new model, it is not considered for recommendation. By contrast, any new models from Toyota are automatically recommended, despite not having any long-term testing.

Cue the but so-and-so has never had any problems with their (insert import brand here), so it must be better comments...

Wow, this thread really turned in a whole other direction!  Anyways,

The amusement park is gone, and nothing is going to change that.

Believe me, everybody here in Youngstown went through the same thing

24 years ago with the closing of Idora Park.  I think the best thing

that could happen now is for all the rides up for auction get sold and find 

new homes.  This is Northeat Ohio, where there's been a population decline

over the last few decades.  GLP was a regional park, and never a long trip 

destination (except for the enthusiasts).  I'm dissappointed that the park is 

closed, but what's done is done.

I love how all unions can be universally labeled after limited exposure in one very narrow portion of the spectrum. Because people aren't lazy in general, they only get that way after they get a union job. Wow.

I'm glad you said that Walt. I have a lot of experience with union employees and there are few I would call "lazy". Are they well aware of their union 'rights'? Sure, as they should be.

djDaemon said:

any new models from Toyota are automatically recommended, despite not having any long-term testing.

I thought Consumer Reports rescinded their automatic "recommendation" last year, due, in large part, to the increased re-calls.

They might have, as I've stopped paying attention to them.

Regardless, it took them far too long to do so, considering the quality slide that's been evident going back several years.