Why I'm Mad At Cedar Point

Cedar Point isn't excluding anybody, Intamin is.

Wahoo... I think you continue to miss the point that John Q. Guest doesn't really care who is responsible. Intamin or CP, doesn't matter. You don't really think anyone will say, "Oh, well since Intamin says so, that's OK by me!"

Pete: Actually, in some ways it is exclusionary toward women because women are built differently. The real measurement is not the waist at all, but the hips and thighs. You and I aren't built for carrying children (unless you have some secret ;)). Watch a train come in the brake run and you'll see belts with less slack on seats with women in them.

Honestly, I won't get that hot about it because I have no problem getting two or three inches, but aside from small children, I don't see many people getting more than that, let alone less. This whole affair is obviously pissing off a significant number of people, and most don't have the "benefit" of seeing it as a reactionary, CYA move by Intamin that doesn't actually make the ride any safer.

actually, Pete, it has less to do with our love of food than you think.

people have just been getting bigger every generation. if you look at the average size of a man in oh, say, WWII, you would see how much SMALLER they were than now. my friend has an Army jacket from WWII and *I* cant even get it on. and i wear a size 10!!

heck, someone over 6 feet tall would have been cinsidered a GIANT in 1942. but now, someone over 6 feet tall is considered NORMAL.

i think that Intamin is going by the EUROPEAN standard of size. and if you are selling a ride to be constructed and RIDDEN in the States, by AMERICANS. then you need to consider that people are different sizes in different parts of the world.

we are NOT all the same. as much as we would like to think so, we're not.

go to a Medieval Castle sometime and see if you can fit through the doorway without stooping. cant be done.

we as humans are evolving to be bigger, and food is not neccesarily a factor. (and this comes from someone who is a chef for a living!!)

Servo, your sorta right, this country is on average the biggest and tallest country on Earth. As Bill Parcels didn't mean to affend "japs", i don't not attend to affend asians, asians are the smallest people on Earth. A 6 foot person here is avg. a 6 foot person their is extremly uncommon. Then africans are smaller, than europeans, then the americans. My point is, were all different, just like all of the people in Futurama, they are all different people and colors their, we just have 3 real different colors, but they all have differnet sizes. So, change your ways Intamin, i know your europeans, we are differnet, notice that.

Jeff, I am not missing the point. But, I am not talking to members of John Q public in here. I am talking to enthusiasts who after 20 plus pages of posts in this and other threads still keep jumping up and down on Cedar Point. Perhaps members of the public won't understand this...or care...but people in here should get the picture by now.

And, with all of these self-proclaimed experts in here I'd like to hear some of their solutions since Cedar Point is obviously dropping the ball in their "professional" opinion. *** Edited 6/10/2004 12:16:39 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo*** *** Edited 6/10/2004 6:21:16 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo***

Wahoo, I think CP is dropping the ball in the PR side of things. That's obvious by the number of people not aware of the situation BEFORE walking through the turnstiles.

I have no doubt Intamin has a ton of engineers working out a solution, which may be as simple as lengthening the belt, or it could be as drastic as completely redesigning the cars to be deeper and similar to TTD's. When you have a customer who has bought 50 million dollars worth of product in the last 5 years, you tend to give them some attention. I really wouldn't be suprised if MF goes down for a couple days in late June so that they can load new trains or make modifications to the ones that are there.

John

John,

So, what would you do?

Make it more obvious at the gates. In plain English (not legalese) "Due to manufacturer requests, the restraints for Millenium Force have changed. Even though you may have ridden before, you may not be able to ride this year." Or something to that effect, just don't BS around the point. It also wouldn't be bad to have a test seat at the main gate.

Thats just my suggestions. I realize that the actual problem is not their fault or something for them to fix, it's Intamins. However it is their job to come up with a way to explain it to the public before they enter the park.

I've not been since opening weekend, and maybe they have a notice at the front gates about the problem, but from the way people are still complaining it would seem not.

John

I'm wondering if they will let me ride
32" waist
5' 11" tall
145.3 lbs
13yr old

One other thing I thought of. It would be nice if all their belts had a line on them at the one inch mark. It would eliminate any discrepancy as to what is and isn't an inch. If the line shows when you pull the belt, you make it, if it doesn't, at least the ops can say, sorry we need to see that line to ensure its fastened properly.

Just another idea to help clarify this to the general public.

John

CPTwister said

"Also, dont look for anything from ACE. Their "leader" has made it well known that she has no sympathy for those that cant ride. Why would you expect there to be anything in the newsletter? Personally I'am glad I dont belong to it and after her comments I never would want to belong to it."

I'm sorry...let me re-word and clarify. =)

I can hear the moaning, groaning and crying now at the ACE convention when the coaster-obsessed people that travelled hundreds/thousands of miles can't ride. I'd be surprised if it doesn't show up in the newsletter or magazine.

I heard the complaining all around me last year at CoasterMania when TTD was down. I'm sure that the gripes will be just as evident this year at the convention when some won't be able to ride during the freetime and ERT on MF. There are many times where I'm definately not proud of crowd/club reactions to unpopular decisions or actions.

Believe me, I think that it sucks that some can't ride. But, I also have respect for safety and set safety standards for rides. Do I think that the standards are strict? Yes! But, I didn't engineer/design the rides. My opinion doesn't really matter to Intamin or CP. What really matters is following ride specs, keeping people amused and keeping guests alive.

I think that if this problem would have been seen during the design process, if Intamin felt that they could redesign/adjust the specs or CP asked if they could redesign/adjust the specs this may not have been an issue.

I'd love to see everyone ride!!! *** Edited 6/10/2004 2:36:43 PM UTC by Scott***

Walt, to answer your question above about Dragster, last Sunday (6/6) they did require me to show 1" of slack on the belt. I was able to do it, however, because of the difference in seat design. On Millennium Force I was only able to get about 3/4" of slack. So if they were to modify the trains to the Dragster style, the ride would accomodate more people.

Pete: the new S:RoS restraints aren't that bad at all. I was at SFNE last weekend, and while you felt a bit uncomfortable in the station, amazingly enough once the you stare down into that tunnel you don't notice anymore. ;)

On the downside, with one train on and the new loading procedures (two platform hosts, separate passes from front to back for belt check and bar check) they were dispatching about every five or six minutes. Thank goodness the weather sucked that day---with crowds the wait would have been unbearable.

As an aside, SFNE's S:RoS is an amazing ride, and IMO fully deserving of its golden ticket. If you haven't made the trip to Agawam yet, it's worth making a special visit. It's that good.

I like the marking idea for the belt and mentioned it a couple of weeks ago. It is my understanding that they are working on this but I am sure it wasn't at my suggestion.

I don't know what signs are posted at the front gate but I don't see the logistics of putting a seat out there. What about all the other rides? Should there be seats for Blue Streak, Dragster, etc all outside the front gate?

There is only so much information you can put in print or tv media. I think they do their best with the information on the website.

If you take the time to read it you will note in several different areas they make detailed note of warning guests of exceptional size about certain rides. They even note: "Each person has different body proportions, so it is impossible to determine exact size and weight."

They even go on to recommend people who are in temporary casts to delay their visit until the cast is removed. Do you suggest they put in a disclaimer, "Guests of extreme body size should delay their visit until they lose weight"?

Their comments under SAFETY are to the point:

"Many amusement park rides have safety systems designed by the manufacturer to accomodate people of average physical stature and body proportion. These safety systems may place restrictions on the ability of an individual to safely experience the ride. Exremely large or small individuals, prenant women, people with casts, braces, restrictive devices or disabilities may not be safely accommodated by these systems. For example, height requirements are based on the size needed for safety restraints to function properly and the level of maturity usually associated with a certain height. This policy was developed in consultation with a biodynamics engineer and a rehabilitation specialist, based on the recommendations of the manufacturer, our past experience, and our evaluation of each ride in both normal and emergency operating conditions. Our prime consideration is the ability of a person to endure the dynamics of the ride without risk of injury to himself, other guests, or park personnel."

Put all of that in a newspaper ad or a commercial.

As for those who rode in the past who may not be able to ride this year: Let's just assume they put in their commercial the following: "Guest who have ridden Millennium Force in the past may not be able to ride this year."

Ok, now what? Until they sit in the seat and try the thing out they will have no idea. You can't do that online or by mail. So, people who have a reasonable drive could possibly drive to the park and try out a test seat...even one at the front gate. But, how about people who don't have a reasonable drive? What about people who might be flying to Ohio?

I guess the bottom line is that perhaps those very few individuals who would be coming to the park ONLY to ride Millennium Force...who also happen to be in the questionable weight/size range...should skip a trip to the Point. I can think of no other option.

Wahoo: I wouldn't characterize the majority of people on this site as general enthusiasts. Even if they were, so what? They pay to get in the park just like the general public. Why does it matter? It's not like the people on this site are the only ones complaining. Sit at the entrance to the ride on any day and ask the pissed off people if they've heard of the site. I'm sure the total will be zero.

I'm not sure I understand why you want anyone here to come up with a solution either. As you pointed out, the people here aren't experts.

My personal feeling is that Intamin should be paying for a retrofit to the Dragster style seats and bars, but what do I know.

Jeff-

More people than you would think seem to have read "the online discussion boards" before visiting CP and riding MF. I've heard many comments suggesting this increase in knowledge-seeking ever since the local media outlets ran stories on the seatbelt change.

Just how many of those people specifically visited PB is something I couldn't tell you, though.

Now that (an Intamin paid-for redesign) I might agree with, but it certainly doesn't do anything in the short term. Of course, it could also open up other issues that none of us are aware of.

I guarantee you that no matter what Cedar Point does, people are going to be pissed. Warnings, test seats, belt markings, etc are all fine and dandy but if you are a large person being told you can't ride because of your girth...nothing else is really going to matter. And, we all know that every single shape and size out there will NEVER be able to be accommodated by a single roller coaster restraint.

So, you play the cards you are dealt. I am just tired of the attacks on good people who are trying their best in an impossible circumstance.

People expecting something other than a canned response from CP officials? I mean come on. If Kinzel responded to every single letter he received he wouldn't be running the company. *** Edited 6/10/2004 3:11:39 PM UTC by Chief Wahoo***

---

Chief Wahoo said:
Warnings, test seats, belt markings, etc are all fine and dandy but if you are a large person being told you can't ride because of your girth...nothing else is really going to matter.

---

Isn't it obvious then that the solution must accomodate "bigger" people? I'm not talking about the 300-pound folks, I'm talking about the folks that could ride prior to this year.

I guess what annoys me the most is the illogical notion that the seat belt, when pulled tighter by an inch, is somehow safer than it was last year when the buckle was pulled out all the way. Illogical solution for a problem that didn't exist in the first place.

The fact that the canned responses were canned is not a problem. But, some of the quotes from those responses that have been reposted here utterly fail customer relations 101---the tone of those notes is that the customer should just suck it up and deal. While I happen to believe this is true, this is *not* how you respond to a complaint.

"We are sorry for your bad experience....however, the ride manufacturer's new requirements....we are continuing to train our hosts to respond to these situations tactfully and sensitively....strive to make every single guest visit a world class experience."

In other words, a response that even *midly* owned up to the fact that some employee somewhere could have handled things better---without changing the basic facts of the situation---can go a long way to smoothing things over.

Brian, wasn't the apology in the first sentence? "We are sorry for your bad experience."

Jeff, I don't disagree with you. But, I am in a position where I must deal with the illogical over the logical on a regular basis (government). And, unfortunately, you come off as an idiot when you are trying to explain away or justify the illogical. I know, I've been there.

When explaining a position I was supporting which would justify our desire to NOT put a dog park near some picnic pavillions, a politician once asked me...on the record and in a public meeting:

"Sir, you have visited some dog parks in the area. What do they smell like? Would they be conducive to the area we are considering." I answered: "Well sir, they smelled...foul." I sounded like an idiot responding to an illogical question.

We all seem to be in agreement that Intamin is requiring the illogical. But that doesn't change the fact that they are requiring it and now Cedar Point is in the position of putting into use policies to address the illogical. Is their a way for Cedar Point to come out smelling good about this? No.

But I cannot stand at the front gate and defend my friends at Cedar Point when the yelling starts. This is one small place where I can.