Sandusky police investigating accident at Cedar Point near Raptor

I have so far only read the abridged version of the article which appeared on M-Live or something like that. My impression (besides the fact that the guy was clearly an "expert witness" for the plaintiff, a fact left out of the article I read but none the less obvious) was that the guy has never been to Cedar Point, and certainly has never ridden Raptor. Otherwise he would know that except for the wording of his proposed signs and possibly some fence details, all of his recommendations were adopted by Cedar Point *decades* ago.

As for the fencing around the ride, these things are governed by standards.

Thus sayeth ASTM F2291-14:14--

14.1 When fences and gates are designed and manufactured to provide protection to spectators or patrons, or guardrails are used to inhibit falls from elevations in primary circulation areas for patrons, they shall be constructed to meet the following minimum requirements in 14.2 – 14.7.
14.2.2.1 They shall be a height of at least 42 in. (1067 mm) above the surface on which the spectators or patrons stand
14.2.2.3 They shall be constructed in such a fashion so as to reject a 4-in. (102-mm) diameter sphere at all openings below 42 in. (1067 mm)

(excerpted, obviously, to leave only the relevant bits)

Based on my visit last Sunday, I estimate the fence around the Raptor kill zone is around six or seven feet high, allowing for some variance due to ground elevation. The decorative fence in the photo is indeed around four feet. The decorative fence is not adorned with warning signs...which is probably appropriate because the warnings should probably be limited to the kill zone fencing. Otherwise the signs become meaningless.

Never mind that the only people who actually read signs are inspectors, attorneys, and insurance underwriters.

If you want to do some forensics on the photo, remember the chain link openings are small enough to reject a 4" sphere, in accordance with F2291-14:14.2.2.3. From that, you can estimate that the chain link fence is between 20" and 25" taller than the post at the end of the decorative fence.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

RideMan said:

Never mind that the only people who actually read signs are inspectors, attorneys, and insurance underwriters.

I read signs.. If you want me to stay away, just ask. :)

guess this guy never played frogger before..

I wonder how much it would cost to completely encase Raptor in concrete?

Probably more than it would cost to just tear the whole darn thing down..

I love the "obey posted signs" mentality. Because we never break the speed limit, park in the fire lane, dive into a pool, smoke in a building.. Just because the sign states not to. F that sign! If I had lost my wallet, and just a short chain link fence was all that stood in the way.. Oh, and a sign.. I'd have certainly made the same decision.

Go ahead, Just try not to hurt anyone who is exposed to your idiocy. Or blame anyone else for it when you are injured/killed. Most people don't need a sign at all to tell them what the purpose of a fenced off area around a ride means.

I'd not climb that fence for my wallet because the sign says not to... and because frigging common sense tells me not to get anywhere near a huge piece of rolling machinery traveling at a high rate of speed..

Guess I'm just dumb.But you go ahead, Augustmueller. Go F that sign.

I read signs. I'm not going to claim to always obey them (most rides at the park have a sign I don't "obey") but I read them and then make a decision based on the sign and the situation. I do not blindly ignore them. If I'm not following the sign's direction it's usually becasue I've made the decision not to.

I didn't state that I would hop the Raptor fence.. I stated that if my wallet (a very important item) was on the other side of A short fence (and a sign) that I'd be going over that fence. The point is, during a time of irrational thoughts, panic, and urgency, a sign (and a sort fence) is a lousy deterrent.

Maybe. Maybe not. Of the tens of millions of riders Raptor has had over the years, the vast majority of those who lost an item while riding seem to have been deterred from entering a restricted area -- if not by the signs and fences, then by common sense or other factors.

Do people really think there should be "Do not enter, fast moving ride will cause death or injury on impact" signs?

Augustmueller said:

I didn't state that I would hop the Raptor fence.. I stated that if my wallet (a very important item) was on the other side of A short fence (and a sign) that I'd be going over that fence.

This statement is contradictory. The fact the fence is by Raptor is not a factor. By your own admission you state you would go over it to retrieve your item(s).

Augustmueller said:

The point is, during a time of irrational thoughts, panic, and urgency, a sign (and a short fence) is a lousy deterrent.

The fence is not short it is two fences. The first being in an employee only area, the second is five to six feet tall.

The so called expert stated that human behaviors would ignore the sign. Adding a sign with a more stringent warning, according to the expert in human behavior, would therefore be ignored.

SMOKING KILLS!

That sign printed on millions of packs & cartons of cigarettes worldwide has worked so well.

F that sign.....my wallet is over there. :)

Augustmueller said:

I love the "obey posted signs" mentality. Because we never break the speed limit, park in the fire lane, dive into a pool, smoke in a building.. Just because the sign states not to. F that sign! If I had lost my wallet, and just a short chain link fence was all that stood in the way.. Oh, and a sign.. I'd have certainly made the same decision.

Oh, jeez. Heaven forbid you realize those signs are redundant to common sense. Let's see here:

break the speed limit

Nope. You're not going to get there any significant amount faster so it's not worth endangering everyone else on the road.

park in the fire lane

Nope. I don't need to have my car towed. I'll gladly find somewhere at the back of the lot or, where on-site parking is not available, the nearest parking garage. Then, I'll walk.

For loading/unloading, I may find an area close to the building that does not prohibit loading/unloading ("standing").

Why would I want to be the one to prevent emergency services from responding in case of a fire? Do you want that hanging over your conscience?

dive into a pool

Generally, when such a sign is posted, the pool is of insufficient depth to dive safely. Therefore, no, I would not dive into a pool with a high risk of crashing into the bottom and injuring myself. Who wants that?

smoke in a building

Nope. I don't burn toxic chemicals for the high - really, like, what? Even if somehow I did, I would not be one to blow them anywhere near other people. And to do so inside? That's just going to get sucked up into the central air system and now everyone has to breathe it. So many levels of nope.

If I had lost my wallet, and just a short chain link fence was all that stood in the way..

Except that it's been reported that what he was looking for (phone and/or wallet), he did not find and nor was it found by the emergency responders. That and the "short chain link fence" with signs warning you to stay away from a large scale roller coaster with heavy trains moving at a high speed? I don't need a fence or signs to know better.

Just like all the other things you've mentioned. People like you are why those signs are up - some people just don't have common sense or take personal responsibility anymore.

It says "RESTRICTED AREA" not "Please don't enter, this is for employees only". That's good enough for every single park on the planet. No need to change anything. Although I wouldn't be against adding "FAST MOVING TRAINS WILL KILL". Save the life of someone riding from being hit by another idiot.

On the one hand I agree -- and on the other hand, I think that anyone who will ignore a sign and a fence telling them to stay out of an area isn't going to pay attention to what a sign says....

Exactly. The *only* reason why I would be for adding that would be to save someone who is riding from being hit.

Ripcord said:

It says "RESTRICTED AREA" not "Please don't enter, this is for employees only". That's good enough for every single park on the planet. No need to change anything. Although I wouldn't be against adding "FAST MOVING TRAINS WILL KILL". Save the life of someone riding from being hit by another idiot.

Correct, except for one person. This was a tragic accident caused by a person negligence, period. Unfortunately lawyers feel the need to make money on stupid things like this and then we write articles on human behavior to further prove that we are so screwed up that some of us might stand in front of a fast moving object because no one told us it was that dangerous. No amount of signs or fences will stop someone who wants to take chances with their lives. Unfortunately CF will be paying someone for their own stupidity, and that in itself is a tragic accident.