Point Pavilion

Saturday, September 27, 2014 7:08 PM

Merging Soak City and Cedar Point would not be a wise decision both from a profit standpoint (which has been discussed enough) and from a guest experience stand point. Other CF properties have successful combined parks but just a comparison to similar attendance wise parks.

Canada's Wonderland- 3.6 million in attendance, waterpark is located in position where having a separate entrance would require large infrastructure improvements including parking, short water park season.

Kings Island- 3.2 million in attendance, waterpark has direct competition located within 2 miles of the park(The Beach) that could likely hurt attendance, design of water park includes two wave pools due to past capacity issues.

Knott's Berry Farm- 3.6 million in attendance, small physical size(160 acres), highly competitive market, separate admission water park.

Kings Dominion- 2.8 million in attendance, waterpark is located in position where having a separate entrance would require large infrastructure improvements including parking, design of water park includes two wave pools due to past capacity issues.

Carowinds- 2.8 million in attendance, waterpark is located in position where having a separate entrance would require large infrastructure improvements including parking, design of water park includes two wave pools due to past capacity issues.

Common features of parks including their waterparks with admission; former paramount parks, location of where the waterparks were placed, capacity issues(two wave pools required).

Soak City is not designed to handle the high capacity that would occur with increased traffic from the whole of Cedar Point. SC does not have the space to add additional wave pools to allow the park to improve capacity. The location allows for an easy separate entrance.

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Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:08 PM

I don't really think this is an argument, but rather a discussion. I personally don't care if it stays the same or changes, in fact I would have said it's never changing, until I found that the way the park structures their prices for resort guests, Soak City is not an add on, it's automatically included. I still haven't heard anybody respond to this new aspect of the discussion.

After seeing the price structure for resort guests, I just want someone to explain how the stand alone Soak City produces additional revenue? Patrons who would just visit Soak City for one day (who aren't resort guests) would have to pay $60 vs $30. To me it would actually be more beneficial to combine.

As far as the capacity, I could see the park expanded into what is currently Challenge Park.

As for the Halloweekends topic (the value loss of the water park being closed during the fall) again is really not a factor as all other parks with water parks that are included don't adjust their prices after the parks close.

There's really nothing else to discuss. I've heard rumors of it combining, we've discussed it, well watch what happens.

I would say that a year ago if the Mantis floor less topic was brought up, most of us would've said it's never happening (myself included). After Rougarou, I think it is safe to assume anything is possible, even the merging of the 2 parks.

Last edited by Tilt-a-Whirl, Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:10 PM
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Saturday, September 27, 2014 8:55 PM

^ I agree, why'd this get labeled an argument?

I can understand it being hard to discuss your point (ttdlifeguyorgirl from previous page), but to just blindly say that if it's not being fixed by CP, it must clearly be perfect is...really not a rational thought. Again, I'm just trying to understand the business drivers here, and really, Maverick up there is the only one to have even come up with the least bit of actual rationalization for the status quo, regarding attendance issues (which I don't agree with) and infrastructure/construction changes (which I can agree with to a point).

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Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:38 PM

Scottyf said:
I can understand it being hard to discuss your point (ttdlifeguyorgirl from previous page), but to just blindly say that if it's not being fixed by CP, it must clearly be perfect is...really not a rational thought.

And this is why I find this discussion to be pointless. No one is even hearing what anyone else has to say, y'all are just coming to false conclusions. All I said was that if there was a problem, they would fix it. We don't know anything about the internals of the business from a financial or attendance perspective, thus we cannot say that this proposed change would or would not be beneficial. There is nothing blind about the realization that if this were a way the park could increase profitability, they would likely do so. What is blind is arguing that somehow the park would be way better off by including both parks in one admission ticket without knowing the internals of the business.

The arguing part is going back and forth, not really listening to another perspective, constantly restating the same points without anything to back that up.

Last edited by topthrilldragster4lyf, Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:38 PM
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Sunday, September 28, 2014 12:33 AM
noggin's avatar

^^Exactly. Cedar Fair is a pretty savvy business. If the company saw a benefit to combining the gates, they'd have done so. If the company sees a benefit in combining the gates in the future, they'll do so.

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Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:01 AM

"it's exciting to add an attraction for a third straight season,” Worlds of Fun vice-president and general manager Frank Wilburn said. “We’ve seen many successes combining Worlds of Fun and Oceans of Fun into one park for one price, and with our guests looking for more activities that could be shared by the whole family we’ve addressed those desires in a major way.”

I just want someone to explain to me how this is not possible for Cedar Point. Again, I honestly don't care what happens, I'm just theorizing a possibility, not stating it as fact. Acting like "it's never going to happen!" when there is ample evidence that it could reminds me of a ride on Bansh.. No Manti... Rougarou. :)

- We've established there is no added $$ generator from resort guests, as multi day tickets automatically include Soak City and a one day combo ticket is $5 less than the CP only ticket. (Yes, this is different than the 1990's structure you are thinking of)

- We've also established that in those few rare cases a family drives from Toledo for the day just to visit Soak City, they would now have to pay a higher ticket price than the existing, lower Soak City only price.

Soak City is a pathetic water park by today's standards. My humble prediction is that 2016 sees a makeover of Soak City similar to the ones we've seen chain-wide, more slides, another wave pool, etc. AND it all under one gate. I don't even think they'll change the gate price. It'll just ensure that everyone on property, no matter what park they're at, is paying $60 for admission.

AND, just like in Kansas City, the park will see a nice spike in attendance, because advertising 2 parks for 1 price for regional theme parks is marketing gold.

Last edited by Tilt-a-Whirl, Sunday, September 28, 2014 2:08 AM
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Sunday, September 28, 2014 5:54 AM

Multi-day tickets do not automatically include Soak City. You have to purchase the ride and slide tickets for Soak City to be included.

When you are comparing the costs of resort guests one day CP ticket to a one day ride and slide ticket you cannot apply gate price to one, and discounted price to the other. A one day CP ticket is 39 for a resort guest while a one day ride and slide is 55 so there definitely is additional income for this ticket. However the 2 day ride and slide is the same price as a 2 day CP only ticket - $75.

Raising the standard ticket price may be counter-productive. Anytime prices are raised it pushes some people away as it will be out of their price range. If CP were to combine the parks and raise the ticket prices it may actually hurt attendance and therefore revenue. Sure, they can try to pass it off as added value - being able to get into both parks, but if you can't afford the price increase that marketing tactic is rather irrelevant.

If the gate price stays the same I don't see how it would benefit CP. I think a Soak City only ticket is around $32 and it is hard to find any discounted prices on it. Using the CP only gate price of $60 can be misleading as I doubt a significant percentage of people pay that price.

I think some would be surprised at the number of families that just go to Soak City for the day. Prior to purchasing season passes we did that quite a bit, many of our friends have as well. I have no idea what the actual numbers are but I'd bet it is not as rare as some think.

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Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:49 AM

JUnderhill said:
Multi-day tickets do not automatically include Soak City. You have to purchase the ride and slide tickets for Soak City to be included.

But the Ride and Slide 2 day combo tickets are not more $$ than the Cedar Point Only 2 day combo Ticket--- they are the same price. The 3 day (the one they push) automatically includes it. https://www.cedarpoint.com/places-to-stay

When you are comparing the costs of resort guests one day CP ticket to a one day ride and slide ticket you cannot apply gate price to one, and discounted price to the other. A one day CP ticket is 39 for a resort guest while a one day ride and slide is 55 so there definitely is additional income for this ticket. However the 2 day ride and slide is the same price as a 2 day CP only ticket - $75.

But the one day combo ticket, which I doubt many resort guests purchase because they are there for multiple days, is still less than a one day Cedar Point only ticket. In other words, they aren't making more money off of these guests, as next door at Cedar Point people are paying $5 more just for Cedar Point. This ticket again doesn't prove Soak City as a so called "revenue generator".

Raising the standard ticket price may be counter-productive. Anytime prices are raised it pushes some people away as it will be out of their price range. If CP were to combine the parks and raise the ticket prices it may actually hurt attendance and therefore revenue. Sure, they can try to pass it off as added value - being able to get into both parks, but if you can't afford the price increase that marketing tactic is rather irrelevant.

Again, I'd argue that they'd keep the gate price the same ($60). The only people that would be "pushed out" would be that small amount that want to attend only Soak City. These people now pay $60, but also get both parks. It's a win win because the guest perceived value for their one day ticket, even if they just stay in Soak City all day- the park got $60/person for those guests rather than $30. And maybe, like some have suggested, after Soak City, these guests are now heading into the park for a few more hours to spend more $$ when they otherwise would've just headed home.

If the gate price stays the same I don't see how it would benefit CP. I think a Soak City only ticket is around $32 and it is hard to find any discounted prices on it. Using the CP only gate price of $60 can be misleading as I doubt a significant percentage of people pay that price.

So having those Soak City only people pay less money per day than they'd have to pay for a combined park benefits the bottom line? How? Less is not more.

I think some would be surprised at the number of families that just go to Soak City for the day. Prior to purchasing season passes we did that quite a bit, many of our friends have as well. I have no idea what the actual numbers are but I'd bet it is not as rare as some think.


Again, if this number is a large number, how does the park make more $$ off of these people, if the combined park would require they pay more for their day of fun?

Last edited by Tilt-a-Whirl, Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:04 AM
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Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:28 AM
Jeff's avatar

The combo tickets result in more money spent, and you couldn't achieve that without offering something for it. It has been said over and over... that's the add-on opportunity.

vwhoward said:
Yeah, I'm out too. It's too difficult to be allowed an opinion without someone who knows "everything" telling you that you are wrong. But if that's how some people get through life, carry on.

Don't be dramatic. No one is disallowing you from having an opinion. But do you honestly believe you can share an opinion without someone disagreeing with you?


Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music

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Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:18 PM
Kevinj's avatar

Something tells me that if the park was not making a significant profit off of the current structure that it would be changed. What the other parks in the chain do is irrelevant. Obviously, they are doing what is best for their audience, and Cedar Point has not had a good enough reason to change.

The problem with a discussion like this is that no one here (that I am aware of) takes a regular look at Cedar Point's books to see what's profitable and what's not. What works at Kings Island does not necessarily work for CP, and vice versa.

To momentarily bring this back to the original post, am I creating a memory, or did Cedar Point used to have a German-themed Beirgarten-type building/pavilion in the front of the park back in the early 1980's?


Promoter of fog.

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Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:45 PM

Yes, I believe where Hurricane Hannah's is. I would love for them to bring back a Biergarten/German themed area. German food and beer! Especially if it was well landscaped and had a huge variety of beer.

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Sunday, September 28, 2014 8:58 PM
Kevinj's avatar

I thought so. I'm sure someone with a more historical mind can chime in, but this would also get my vote. Then again, my family has a German heritage, and I was carted around to every Oktoberfest in the state of Ohio in my youth; hence my questioning of whether or not this was actually at Cedar Point or if I was combining memories.

Cue the Strange Brew jokes.

Last edited by Kevinj, Sunday, September 28, 2014 9:01 PM

Promoter of fog.

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Monday, September 29, 2014 8:00 PM

Jeff said:
The combo tickets result in more money spent, and you couldn't achieve that without offering something for it. It has been said over and over... that's the add-on opportunity.

I'm still trying to understand how the combo tickets result in more money spent when the multi day combo tickets automatically include Soak City, its not extra.

If the 2 day Cedar Point ticket was $75, and the 2 day Cedar Point/Soak City ticket was $88, that argument could be made.

But they are the exact same price. There is no "add on" as it stands, any guest who stays at the resort and plans to attend the park more than one day essentially gets Soak City for free.

I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just trying to see how someone can claim that Soak City should be kept a separate gate because of the resort guests.

Last edited by Tilt-a-Whirl, Monday, September 29, 2014 8:03 PM
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Monday, September 29, 2014 8:17 PM

It could also be a money maker in other aspects than just gate price though.

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Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:55 PM
Jeff's avatar

Tilt-a-Whirl said:
I'm not trying to be a pain, I'm just trying to see how someone can claim that Soak City should be kept a separate gate because of the resort guests.

I don't think you're trying hard enough.


Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music

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Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:22 PM

^ seriously? In 2 pages I'll I've heard is that the reason Soak City is a separate gate is because of the resort guests. When it was clarified that multi day tickets do not have Soak City as an "add on" option, but rather Soak City is included automatically, all people have come up with is "Cedar Point has their reasons."

I'm just curious as to what people think those reasons are. We can move the topic to a Soak City thread, as we've gotten off topic- but it is certainly a reasonable topic to discuss.

Some of you see Cedar Point from a 1997 perspective. The reality is there hasn't been a record attendance year since 1994. While the park is immensely profitable, the park is trying to drive attendance growth. Detroit and Cleveland markets have changed drastically- people are looking for value. For years they've tooted the "Largest coasters!" Horn. Marketing more of a value oriented attraction which promotes "2 parks in one" maybe the route they decide to go.

Just because they have the resorts doesn't mean that drives the majority of their attendance. Sandusky is not Orlando, and the park is mostly made up off one day visitors.

Last edited by Tilt-a-Whirl, Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:51 PM
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Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:30 PM

Tilt-a-Whirl said:
... rumors show the park is trying to drive attendance growth.

What did I just even read?

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Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:26 PM

Unfortunately, when a person's point of view in a discussion runs out of juice, they face a choice and then...:

a) Admit they really can't explain their position anymore and graciously bow out
b) Simply stop posting
c) Snipe like a 10 year old

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Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:26 PM
Jeff's avatar

What difference does it make if Soak City is included on a 2-day ticket? If it helps drive the decision to buy a more expensive ticket, the park wins. If that incentive doesn't exist, or it's simply always included, there's no incentive.

And besides, if you have conversations with people at the park who know all of the numbers, they'll tell you without question that the water park being a separate gate adds revenue through single-day tickets, multi-day combo tickets and platinum passes. It also works as an effective way to control crowd size, and if you've ever been to KI, you know why that's important for the guest experience.


Jeff - Advocate of Great Great Tunnels™ - Co-Publisher - PointBuzz - CoasterBuzz - Blog - Music

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Wednesday, October 1, 2014 12:56 PM

If adding Millennium Force, TTD, Wicked Twister, Maverick, Gatekeeper, and a whole host of other rides and amenities hasn't caused Cedar Point's attendance to increase beyond 1994 levels, I'm not sure adding a water park to the ticket will bring out the masses.

I honestly can't tell you why the 2-day Ride and Slide tickets are the same as the 2-day Cedar Point tickets. To me it doesn't make sense and they should do away with 2-day CP tickets if they're going to be the same price.

I personally think that Soak City appeals mostly to people who plan to spend more than one day at the park. As Matt Ouimet said in his interview with Jeff, it allows people to slow down a bit and take a break from CP. Most one-day visitors to CP may not really care about having SC added because unlike multi-day guests it isn't something that they have time for. They have so many hours to spend and they're probably more concerned about experiencing what drew them to the peninsula in the first place. So does it make sense to give everyone access to something that they probably won't use, or instead use it as an incentive to encourage people to buy season passes or multi-day tickets?

Only the folks at CP/CF really know for sure I guess.

Last edited by jsmith7300, Wednesday, October 1, 2014 12:57 PM
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