Point Pavilion

^ While probably true, during the day the area always seems dead. The amount of foot traffic and potential customer base seems like it would be greater if in the park. Especially if the park is moving towards later closing times, which was evident this summer with Beach Parties, etc.

The rumor of Challenge Park leaving and Soak City expanding is bitter sweet IMO. Soak City needs updates in a lot of areas just as much, if not more, than Cedar Point. However, I would love to see the Challenge Park area utilized as something that could be available all season long.

jsmith7300 said:
If SC is added to the general admission then I would expect ticket prices to increase.

I don't see why. Don't most people pick either one or the other. I'm sure you get some cross traffic that will visit both in the same day, but that's probably because they have a season pass.

I can see why. If they charged for both parks, they would lose some revenue that they would normally get from SC admissions. It would be interesting to see the ratio of general admission to season pass guests for SC.

That they built sling-shot inside the park seems to hint at a move away from Challenge Park being where such things go.

Mini-golf I can see remaining where it is at. They did just revamp 1/3 of the courses but then that eliminated 1/3 and the final 1/3 is rotting away. It has a low volume capacity and properly lit, can be used by hotel guests and late visitors to CP. But moving it? It would get overly swamped in the middle of the park and that would lead to negative guest experiences.

But the other attractions? I think go-karts and the rest could vanish tomorrow and it would have negligible impact on the bottom-line.

Soak City? Expand, sure, this year, no.

Thabto said:
I can see why. If they charged for both parks, they would lose some revenue that they would normally get from SC admissions.

What revenue exactly would be lost when you write "that they would normally get from SC admissions."

The revenue from people buying Soak City tickets. If park tickets got you into both places, they would lose that revenue, therefore they would need to increase the ticket price to compensate for that loss.

^ I think his point is that the people who would normally pay $30 for a ticket to Soak City will now pay $50 for a ticket to both. Possibly even increasing attendance because of increased "perception of value".

I never predicted them including Soak City in the price of admission, but after thinking about it further I could potentially see this as a possibility for two reasons:

- The visitors to Cedar Point staying at the resorts are going to buy a multi day ticket anyway. They are not just there for Soak City. While in theory it makes sense to charge separately for both, I'd say the data shows that over 90% of visitors to the resorts purchase multi day tickets which usually include Soak City & Cedar Point already. Keep the price the same on those multi-day tickets.

- The amount of single day tickets sold for Soak City ONLY is probably very small. By including both parks
under one gate they essentially force everyone to pay $50 + to get into the parks. Again, the only value Soak City would potentially have would be the single day only tickets, which I argue are a very small amount. The vast majority of guests to Soak City (resort people) probably have a multi day ticket, not a single day Soak City ticket.

I know they have seen great response in Kansas City because of the move. Mainly because people see the visit as a good value, and therefore a great marketing ploy to get more people on property.

I think it costs $60 for just a park ticket, there's no way it would be $50 for both. I think the ticket price would go up to at least $75, but wouldn't affect Platinum Pass costs. Whether they do that or not wouldn't affect me because I get a Platinum Pass every year.

^ Nobody pays the gate price. I am factoring in the discounts/etc. that most people find. You are right though, I could see them raising the gate to $65, but again, no one pays gate price.

- A two day ticket to the Point (which includes Soak City) is $87, and $77 if you are staying at the resorts, if that gives you some perspective.

- Including the park in admission probably wouldn't make much of a difference. Perhaps Worlds of Fun data could give more inside info, but from what I've heard they've seen increase on all levels from the merger.

Adding SC to the general admission ticket is going to have an impact on the operation of the water park. You're taking an area that sees roughly 330,000 a year and opening it up to ten times that amount of people. Granted, not everyone who comes to CP will go to SC but there will be an increase - especially if it is perceived to be free. That's going to require additional staff, more frequent maintenance, etc. Pair that with the lost revenue from the Ride+Slide tickets, as well the loss of SC general admission, and I think they would have little choice but to raise CP ticket prices.

^ All you have to do is look at Kings Island and Canada's Wonderland to know that it'll work. Those parks see more visitors annually than Cedar Point. We don't have individual attendance figures for those waterparks because they are included in the gate.

NWLB said:
Mini-golf I can see remaining where it is at. They did just revamp 1/3 of the courses but then that eliminated 1/3 and the final 1/3 is rotting away....

I'm confused when you say, "1/3 of the courses". There have only been two 18-hole courses, red and blue, as far as I can remember. I think it's the red course which is currently out of service. Was there a third course somewhere else?

Tilt-a-Whirl said:
^ All you have to do is look at Kings Island and Canada's Wonderland to know that it'll work. Those parks see more visitors annually than Cedar Point. We don't have individual attendance figures for those waterparks because they are included in the gate.

That's the worst possible comparison you could make. Kings Island is public transportation distance from a major metro. A combined makes sense there. It makes zero sense at Cedar Point. For one, having to increase the price for a combined gate would be a losing calculation, and decrease the value proposition in the shoulder seasons, the latter of which has become a significant part of attendance. Second, you've got a perfect add-on revenue generator for Soak City, with it sitting right in the middle of an on-property resort. It would be a terrible business decision to give it away.

NWLB said:
Mini-golf I can see remaining where it is at. They did just revamp 1/3 of the courses but then that eliminated 1/3 and the final 1/3 is rotting away. It has a low volume capacity and properly lit, can be used by hotel guests and late visitors to CP. But moving it? It would get overly swamped in the middle of the park and that would lead to negative guest experiences.

There are only two courses on the Mini Golf, not three. The course on the left, as viewed by looking at the course from the entrance gate, is the one currently out of service.

For many years CP had mini golf in the park, first where the electric trucks are now in Kiddie Kingdom and then later where Planet Snoopy is now. Attracted a nice amount of players but it was never swamped as in over croweded as far as I remember. We always played mini golf when it was in the park, where it is now it is not as convenient and it is sort of out of site/out of mind.

Jeff, I totally get that reasoning.

My point was that there are probably very few people purchasing single day tickets to Soak City. Most of the visitors are resort guests who buy multi day tickets. Mutli day tickets automatically include Soak City now, its not an upcharged item. 2 + day tickets to the park automatically include both and are priced at $77. So technically they wouldn't be giving away anything.

What about guests who buy 2 day tickets because they want to go the Cedar Point twice and then purchase a 1 day Soak City ticket to experience the water park? Seems like the guests would be tempted to stay an extra night in the hotel.

I've actually talked to a number of people in the Soak City bar that are staying on property and only purchased a Soak City ticket for that day. For most I've talked to, the plan is to let the kids play in the water park while the adults drink in the bar, then they meet later for dinner, etc. The big draw is to allow adults time to relax while the kids have fun. Bubbles Bar may be a much bigger draw for Soak City than most people realize.

Since Bubbles was brought up... My wife and I are waiting for the day that the kids are old enough to be off on their own while we relax there. I have had more than one experience taking a tired, upset and crying child past that place... if only they had a day care right outside the gate.

From a pure business aspect, I cant think if a single reason to combine the gates. The onsite resorts are a game changer there. Why would you throw that money away?

I spend a lot of time at Bubbles as well and have run into many parents from the resorts that lets the kids go in the water park and they are having a drink at the bar. Bubbles could use a nice update. The location of Bubbles is amazing to sit and look over the lake.

As far as Challenge Park, From what I observe, the traffic flow is fairly steady, but I wouldn't consider it busy by any means. I think it could go away and most people would never miss it.

Pete said:
What about guests who buy 2 day tickets because they want to go the Cedar Point twice and then purchase a 1 day Soak City ticket to experience the water park? Seems like the guests would be tempted to stay an extra night in the hotel.

I've actually talked to a number of people in the Soak City bar that are staying on property and only purchased a Soak City ticket for that day. For most I've talked to, the plan is to let the kids play in the water park while the adults drink in the bar, then they meet later for dinner, etc. The big draw is to allow adults time to relax while the kids have fun. Bubbles Bar may be a much bigger draw for Soak City than most people realize.

They are wasting their money if they buy a 2 day combo ticket and then add on Soak City for day 3. That would be $77 (resort rate) + $35. A 3 day ticket that includes both parks is $95.