New construction markings.

^^

If everyone had an Epiphone at the same time, things could get unbearably loud.

Although I will admit that their Les Paul copy is one of the best downmarket clones around ;)

If Cedar Point were to build a wooden roller coaster, they will probably go with GCI. It will cost them around $10 million. If Cedar Point were to go with Gravity Group, they could get a very decent coaster for $5 million and a Voyage type coaster for $7 million. That extra $5 million could be used for upgrades around the park.

Cedar Point could totally upgrade The Breakers for $5 million. I have no desire to stay at the breakers because there are not enough perks to stay there. The rooms are old looking (early 90's decor), there is no continental breakfast, no business center, and there is no charging to the room. I would think the Breakers would be packed if it offered those things.

Another thing that would be great to offer to Passholders/ Resort guests would be letting them get a drink wristband for unlimited drinks for $10 or so. I believe one of the Busch Gardens (i think Tampa but correct me if wrong), has been offering an online deal for unlimited drinks.

Am I missing something? These new construction markings don't seem to be pointing to new food service (sadly)? ;)

At this point, I don't feel that CP truly "needs" to adhere to the "build a coaster every 4-5 years" rule. The reason we don't see one every 2 or 3 is because it now takes over that to plan something of significant size in todays world. However, if asked "What would make come back more often and spend more money here at the park?" to a sensible family or individual I honestly think they would say something regarding to food service and/or accommodations.

I may not know economics but if CP doesn't get much income from repeat guests BECAUSE of inadequate food and leave "one time guests" with a bad impression then I can't see why you would even say they "need" a coaster to help/fix that. I'm a strong advocate for better,cheaper food but I still rarely spend money for in park food. Though I only really eat at Panda anyway (even though a 2 entree with pop is $9 at a regular vendor compared to CP's $14).

Dont get me wrong, I'm glad that we are getting something new in a much needed area, but an upgrade in some way would still be MUCH MUCH appreciated.......enthusiast and general public alike.

SO here's to a new ride and a new eating stand that "tests" new prices for "new kinds of food". :)

Kyle2154 said:
And we all know how accurate your bets can be.

Please. Yes, I was wrong, and admitted as much. But if you insist on playing that card...

Kyle2154 said:
@DJ: Didn't they just throw millions of dollars at hotel breakers, totally remodeling it?

Kyle2154 said:
Ticket plus in park spending.

And that's just in the last 2 pages. But anyway...

Kyle2154 said:
The food covo about quality/pricing could go round and round. I still maintain that it is more likely the dip in the economy causing the issues than everyone having an epiphone at the same time.

Wait, the economy started tanking ten years ago (when attendance flatlined)? No, the economy tanked in 2008. I'm not sure how that even retroactively affected attendance and per cap going back a decade. Please explain.

We get stuck with high prices for beer and cheap hot dogs everywhere, ball games, concerts, movie theatres, amusement parks, everywhere. And the fact that we are stuck at the park longer is all the more reason to charge more.

Sure, if you only care about making money today, and don't care about sustainability. Seriously, it's moronically short-sighted to screw your customers over time & again. There are many companies that no longer exist because they cared more about making money right now than satisfying their customers.

So the average person is spending what? $10 on parking, $25 on a ticket, and $5 in the park? Doesn't really change anything though, it's either up over time, or down.

Ummm... that people only spend $5 on average in the park doesn't change your view at all? That's impressive, and not in a good way. :)

djDaemon said:
Wait, the economy started tanking ten years ago (when attendance flatlined)? No, the economy tanked in 2008. I'm not sure how that even retroactively affected attendance and per cap going back a decade. Please explain.

The greater Detroit area has been in a recession for 6 or 7 years.

Sure, if you only care about making money today, and don't care about sustainability. Seriously, it's moronically short-sighted to screw your customers over time & again. There are many companies that no longer exist because they cared more about making money right now than satisfying their customers.

Short-sighted? The park has been open for 141 years, and until EBITDA starts to go below the level competitors are at, I have to take that as worth more than your personal opinion. It's moronic to act like the park is going to fail, even though they never have, even though they aren't, but just saying they are going to, over and over. Lets see the numbers for 2010 when their done, according to you they should be VERY bad with pop price increases and such.

Ummm... that people only spend $5 on average in the park doesn't change your view at all? That's impressive, and not in a good way. :)

What I mean is, per cap is just telling you how much people spend. It's either going up or down over time.

I'm pretty sure people didn't stop going to Cedar Point because of the food.

Just think of the lifestyle changes in the average American family in the past decade. Think of the events that have happened to cause these changes.

I'm not a betting person but I'd bet those have more to do with it than people being mad about paying too much for a subpar burger. The general public will continue to buy overpriced food because they are hungry and don't think to bring their own, or they are willing to pay more in the park because they don't want the hassle of walking back to the hotel/car.

Anyway... any updates on the construction markings? Anyone dig up footers on the beach yet? lol

Kyle2154 said:
The greater Detroit area has been in a recession for 6 or 7 years.

That's a stretch, to say the least. Michigan's recession goes back maybe to 2005, at most. Regardless, Michigan's recession does not explain CP's flatlined attendance and per cap issues that predate the economic downturn by several years.

Short-sighted? The park has been open for 141 years, and until EBITDA starts to go below the level competitors are at, I have to take that as worth more than your personal opinion.

As has been noted by people far smarter than either of us, EBITDA isn't nearly as useful a metric as you suggest.

It's moronic to act like the park is going to fail, even though they never have, even though they aren't, but just saying they are going to, over and over.

Kyle, you do this all the time. If I challenge your suggestion that CP "owes" us a new coaster this year (and you suggested that), you claim that I'm predicting the park will fail. How you get from A-to-B is beyond me. And it doesn't move the conversation forward at all. So don't do it.

Lets see the numbers for 2010 when their done, according to you they should be VERY bad with pop price increases and such.

See above.

What I mean is, per cap is just telling you how much people spend. It's either going up or down over time.

Wow, really? Brilliant observation! ;)

The problem is that attendance has been flat and per cap has been rising. At the same time, food prices have been rising. This is simple math. If you have rising food prices and steady attendance, combined with rising per cap, that suggests people are not buying more stuff in the park. The park is not gaining revenue so much as they are hiking prices to make it appear as though they are. So, CF's balance sheet at year's end will look fine to the casual observer, but there's an underlying problem that has a very high likelihood of coming back to hurt them in the future, due to the impact that a horrendous value proposition has on guests' perception of the park.

deeganator said:
The general public will continue to buy overpriced food because they are hungry...

That sounds suspiciously similar to "people have to eat". And that's not a compliment.

Sorry I took

"Seriously, it's moronically short-sighted to screw your customers over time & again. There are many companies that no longer exist because they cared more about making money right now than satisfying their customers."

to mean you thought the park was going to fail.

It's a tired argument, EBITDA is a very useful metric for examining a companies operations...and much, much more so than your ramblings on about whatever it is you're trying to say. People get screwed for high prices for crappy food and drinks at locations they can't bring their own in to, it's a common practice.

Disney doesn't discount tickets...CP does...Disney has better food/beverage prices, CP doesn't...lots of different methods. If we look at EBITDA, CP has a much larger margin, yes they're debt/interest is killing the bottom line, but that's a financial point, not an operational one...

In your own words..."I'm done feeding this troll", your argument about CP's financial status always seems ignorant, saying weird things like "EBITDA isn't a useful metric" really? really?...maybe for engineering questions you can provide insight on the actual topic.

Did you really just suggest that CP is doing better than or even equally as good as Disney, operationally or otherwise?

If so, I admire your sense of humor. :)

It looks like screamscape has predicted the ride may be a flat, woodie, or intamin, all in about 48 hours...

You take enough shots at the barrel, you're bound to eventually hit a fish.

If he would just list the facts in nice, simple, format, that would work fine. It's going to "target thrill seekers", "not intamin", "bring back memories", and post pictures of construction markers. That would look a lot better and be more informative, not to mention look a lot more credible. He's all over the place.

As Walt mentioned, that's what he does.

I get what he's trying to do, and really, I appreciate it. He's like TMZ for coaster freaks. But being this far all over the place is no help what so ever. I'd take a collection of facts over this "one rumor says flat, while one says woodie, while one says throw back, while one says intamin..."

It's gotta be a tough line to walk, pumping out secrets ahead of the curve while making sure not to stumble in to too much BS, but dang man.

TMZ? I peg him more as Weekly World News.

You mean "the paper", John. ;)

And yeah, he's not even on the TMZ level of accurateness, since much of what TMZ spews is actually based on photos or video and what-not. Screamscape seems to regurgitate ANYTHING with little or no regard to credibility.

That's funny.

It would be nice to have a collection of bullet points listing 100% facts about the ride. If I miss 2 or 3 days on here (weekends) it's tough to go back and find everything. He sort of does that, I guess.

Thankfully, this new attraction should be spectacularly easy to keep track of, with regard to info. We know it's not Intamin, that it'll be located around where the markings are and that there's some historical relevance.

The rest we'll find out in about a month, which is pretty damn soon.

I can't wait until they announce the announcement day. That way I can count down to the announcement and fly our of bed like a little kid on christmas morning on THE day.

Anyone remember this? Perhaps Valleyfair Enthusiast was right on the ball back in May, or was he hired to design the new coaster? :)

Granted, it is not entirely lined up with the markings, but it is darn close. You'd just have to extend the coaster past Oceana, or remove Oceana entirely and build there, like we've been discussing. I don't think that they'll build that close to the water, but this looks to be our best bet. Heck, he even got the name right!

Video also available.