Gas at $3.25,will affect attendance

Walt said:

Malibu Maxx

Ford Explorer

Sure if you go with the biggest engine you can get for the Malibu Maxx. But who would buy an SS Malibu anyway?

Lets try that again with the 3.5 liter V6 and not the 3.9.

From Chevy.com
Malibu Maxx
3.5L (3500 V6) 20/30
3.9L (3900 V6) 17/24

I would not rest my laurels on fueleconomy.gov. They said I should get a combined 22 out of my 5-speed 4 banger and I average 31.

TTD 120mph said:
Look what gas is doing to everyone!

Curse you gas companies, CURSE YOU!!!!!:)

Made me laugh :)

Cedarpointr0x: I'm not going to bother to refute your opinion, since you cannot give your point of view against mine without being rude. I only will say that: YOU sir....are no gentleman.

~Slams door~............~cracks it back open~ And I WONT be back here to hear your response! Good DAY! ~slams door even harder~

Vince982 said:

topthrilldragster4lyf said:
<my_opinionated_response>

When I graduate, my dad has pretty much promised me a new car. ...As such, I'm leaning towards a car, possibly a Mercury Milan or Ford Fusion I4....

...I'm sick of all these Jeeps, Hummers, and other SUVs that I see in the student lot at my high school. That is, knowing full well that its likely the property of some snotty, stuck-up, rich brat who gets whatever they want so their parents get them to shut up. Again, if the student has such a need, I don't see any problem with that, at all. Otherwise, there is no need to fill the lots with such wastes.

</my_opinionated_response>

I have a bone to pick with that. What makes you different from the snotty, stuck-up, rich brats? You're being promised a new vehicle just as they got. I understand you have the need to get school, work, etc. but why do you need a new Fusion or Milan? Why not settle with an older model Civic or something like that? Or better yet, get a job and buy one yourself. I'm not trying to be rude or specifically attack you. Maybe it's because I'm 18 and have always worked for anything I wanted. If I wanted a cell phone, I saved and bought it and payed the bills. I needed a car for work so I saved my money and bought it. I pay my insurance (a nifty $4200/year) and all gas costs. I think it's all about growing up and learning responsibility. I'm 18 and in the bratty teenager age group, but I feel that I have much more maturity than most 18 year olds.

**By the way Josh, I drive a 99 Sable so I'd love to hear about how your brother got that kind of milage. :)

topthrilldragster4lyf

This may not be your style but I reccomend a chevy HHR or something similar. I have one of those and love it. It is comfortable to drive and gets great gas mileage (24/30+). It has a ton of cargo space which would help out with your frequent moves (all passenger seats fold flat). It also comfortabley fits 4 or 5 adults (depending on their size) while still having a lot of cargo space.

Vince982

Not everyone who is given an new car at graduation is a snotty stuck up brat. I have known many people whos parents got them brand new cars for high school graduation because their parents wanted them to pay for college themselves. (these were not rich people, just familys who wanted college to mean more to their kids by them paying for it themselves but still have a nice reliable car while there).

Then there is my situation. During high school I was an athlete. I practiced every day after school on the weekends and during the summer. My sport was my life and I worked very hard at it. My parents made a deal with me. College or a new car. I got a full ride to college and they got me a new car for high school graduation.

Without knowing TopThrill's situation it is unfair to make a judgement. Being more mature than the average 18 year old does not involve snap judgements without knowing the situation just because they are getting a new car when you didn't.
*** Edited 5/6/2007 3:07:07 PM UTC by Krafty***

^^^^

The only reason they have kids right out of college teaching grade school and not high school is because they're the only ones you can relate with.

Take your "kindygarden cut downs" back to your day job and try again.

If you'd go back and read my response I was merely pointing out that your post sounded too serious and that Walt was just joking.

And the fact that Walt wasn't making a generalization to begin with. I guess you just chose to ignore that fact, huh?

It's probably best that you go, you wouldn't want to have any correspondence with someone over the age of 8.

*** Edited 5/6/2007 3:11:04 PM UTC by Loopy***

Coastern3rd said:
Sure if you go with the biggest engine you can get for the Malibu Maxx.

I wasn't doing research for a doctorate. I pulled up a few examples.

I would not rest my laurels on fueleconomy.gov.

I'm not, but it's good enough to make the comparison. Forget about nitpicking each vehicle. My point still stands: SUV's are not much worse than many full and mid-size sedans, but only the SUV owner is looked down on.

Vince,

Hey, I don't get much from my parents. I've learned that I'm going to have to work for what I want. I plan on getting a job this summer so that I can save up for such things as gas for next summer's CP trips. I want a decent computer, so I'm going to have to buy that.

I'm glad that there are more people out there, Vince, that have to work for what they want. Congratulations for all that you have gotten through your own money and hard work. That makes every purchase feel so much more important, knowing just how much went into making that a possibility.

I'm not snotty, stuck-up, rich, or a brat. I appreciate everything and everyone, and don't use people or any of that nonsense. Rich? Yeah, living with six people's stuff in a 3bed, 3bath (not all function properly) 1600sqft apartment doesn't show that. It's small, but we don't make too much of a problem out of it.

I'm going to put much of the money aside for a major purchase that I may make in the future. I will buy my own car if need be, although I will take whatever he'll give me gladly and very thankfully.

The '98 is a car that my dad has had since around '99, bought from a rental company. It's currently just sitting outside, not seeing much use. I would take a smaller car if available to me, but its not at the moment. I don't need much, and I'm sane enough to realize that.

As to how the '99 got that mileage, I'm really not sure. He reports on seeing anywhere from around 20mpg up to around the aforementioned 32mpg. It depends on how the car is driven, mainly (obviously).

$4200/yr for insurance? The insurance for my brother's '99 through my dad's Geico account, listed around Flint due to where he goes to college, for six months, last I checked, is around $650. Do they really overcharge younger drivers that much?

About me being promised a new car... I'm skeptical if he will buy me one anyway. Supposedly, if I get pretty much a full scholarship, then he will. Why? Because he wouldn't need to help with my tuition at all.

Why a Fusion/Milan? Well, that looks interesting to me, as well as supporting a struggling Detroit economy. Hey, I had to add that...

My main concern, however, is that the car runs good and gets good mileage. It doesn't have to be new, but I appreciate knowing the true history of the car instead of whatever lies the seller might tell me. I know to do my research, but even that sometimes isn't thorough enough.

Why not an older Honda or Toyota? I don't like when I don't know the history of a big used purchase, because it could end up having problems not related to how I treated it. I don't really want a Japanese for reasons I'd rather not get into.

On the other hand, these are 16-18 year olds, many of whom I know as a fact to not need a vehicle as large as they have. Also, many of these that think they are so special and all full of themselves. People in the area where I live tend to have a lot of money. They want a fancy, huge car and they've got it just like that.

About responsibility... I take care of my little sister, cook some stuff, etc. When I have to do something, I do so responsibly. I understand just how hard it can be to have to earn what you want, as I go through the same exact thing.

I'm not 18 yet, but I do tend to act much more mature than my age. It's good to hear that there are more people that are more mature than their age would suggest. You sound like a good person Vince, no need to attack me. :)

^^^

You are right, an HHR is not my style :)

That said, I will look into that.

I believe, however, that a car would be capable of carrying everything I need. The Fusion and Milan have a back seat that folds down as well as the front passenger seat. I expect that to be enough space. Main priorities are clothing, bathroom supplies, a computer of some sort, and maybe something for recreational purposes.

My brother is doing fine, having taken his Taurus to Charleston, South Carolina, and Mesa, Arizona, with no other transport for his stuff.

Who knows...

Another factor that hasn't been discussed isn't what you drive but also how you drive. You can use less gas if you drive smarter. You don't have to floor it at every traffic light. You can use less gas if you drive a little slower on the freeway too.

Exactly. The nicer you are on the car, the better the mileage. If you are gentler on the breaks and in acceleration, you will use less fuel.

Part of why the new EPA estimates are lower is because they took into account such factors as increased speed, AC use, and more rapid acceleration/deceleration.

Touchdown said:
How does he fit getting in and out though.

Well she does just fine. And we've taken six hour drives together as well. Comfort is not an issue.

Loopy said:
You want me to go buy another vehicle to drive to work every day? We use the van to tow our camper maybe 6 or 8 times a year. I don't think I've ever had more than three people in it, ever, and it seats eight. So I shouldn't drive it to work and back?

You can do whatever the hell you want, just don't pretend it doesn't come at a price to everyone else. I think it was Pete who already mentioned that a rental for those "6 to 8 times" would still not cost more than the money you'd save on gas the rest of the year.

All of these "exceptions" that people keep making are exactly what I'm talking about when I say there's a cultural problem. It's all about "me" and what I need, damn the effects it has on the environment or the economy. If you're unwilling to find ways to compromise, then gas prices will continue to go up, the climate will continue to get warmer in the poles, and your kids and grandkids are going to be living in a real mess.

Try just for a moment to look beyond your self and think for a moment about the bigger picture.

Don't forget cruise control, its the best way to get the best mileage out of your car because it keeps the engine running on a constant even keel, instead of the burst and coast that usually happens when a person is using their pedals.

Also, Jeff I know no matter what I say you wont believe me but Ive been in Corollas as a passenger and driver and I have to crouch. I had to learn to drive in one, and it was not pleasant.

I have no problem with compromise, like I said I would happily buy an SUV Hybrid as my next car.

The air pollution from running a convention lawn mower for an hour is roughly the same as that from driving a car 100 miles.

A snowblower sends almost a pound of carbon monoxide into the air each hour it runs. That's about the same as driving a car 70 miles.

How many SUV haters don't use a push mower or shovel snow by hand?

The typical household produces more than twice the carbon dioxide in a year between heat and electricity than an SUV driven 12,000 miles (source). We live in an industrialized nation where people look at central air conditioning and giant snow blowers as a right. We can pick on the SUV, but who wants to give up their central air? Who wants to turn off their big TV's and computers?

I'm sure it would be easy if the SUV was the only cause of what ills us, or even if it was the #1 cause. I'm not saying that SUV's promote tree growth, but, the truth is, even people who own little tiny fuel efficient vehicles contribute to the mess we're in.

There was an article in People two weeks ago about the Sharp family. They use solar panels, make homemade biodiesel, use cloth diapers, reduce garbage by 25% through composting, mow the lawn with a push mower, harvest rainwater for irrigation, among many other lifestyle changes. Anyone here at that level? Do the Sharp's think they're better than you? I'm sure most families want to balance their convenient lifestyle further from that all-green lifestyle. So why is it hard to accept that some people's balance is different than others?

As long as you're not hauling kids in a truck, I guess everything else is OK.

*** Edited 5/6/2007 7:01:49 PM UTC by Walt***

Are you suggesting, Walt, that we just throw our hands up in the air and say, "It doesn't matter?"

You're illustrating my point exactly, that if you don't consider the big picture, you don't feel any incentive to change your habits. I happen to have an electric lawn mower. I use my snow blower about three times a year. I have the mini fluorescent light bulbs that use a fraction of the electricity, even if they do cost more. I don't leave my computers on overnight. I turn off my furnace during the day (one of these days I'll get one of those thermostats that do it for me). I live in a county where 40-50% of solid waste is recycled. And yes, I drive a car that gets 35 to 40 mpg (and without compromise). I'm doing my part.

But I can't do it by myself. Measurable impact only comes in volume. This is not about who is better than anyone else. The "convenient lifestyle" is B.S. I find nothing inconvenient about my life given the changes I've made in my lifestyle, because the technological opportunities are there, today! This isn't about balance, it's about looking for the alternatives.

Remember the big concern about the hole in the ozone layer? We banned the use of CFC's in aerosols and air conditioning systems, and lo and behold, we've started to reverse the damage.

And mind you, this is just the environmental angle. This doesn't even get into the political and economic issues that surround irresponsible energy policy at the individual and governmental level.

I'm not saying that at all. My point was simply that there are lot problems with a lot of causes. Only one type of vehicle seems to get the bulk of the blame though, even though its efficiency isn't far off from many other types. And that's assuming that transportation itself is 100% of the problem.

Simply making the choice to drive an SUV doesn't make you inherently evil. Is the SUV really the #1 problem in this country, or is it despised because of the perceived culture they supposedly represent? The attacks on efficiency are always paired with some "soccer mom" or affluent stereotype. If the typical SUV got 40 mpg, would you be any more inclined to buy one?

One person may say that the SUV is OK, as long as it's not a 10 mpg beast. Another person may say those who drive any type of SUV are being too excessive. Another person may say that anyone who drives a vehicle other than those with a 4-cylinder engine are being too excessive. Another person may say unless you use public transportation, you are too excessive. Still another may say you should live a lifestyle that allows you to walk or ride a bicycle everywhere. So who's right?

topthrilldragster4lyf said:
<my_opinionated_response>

When I graduate, my dad has pretty much promised me a new car. I would be moving every three months in work-school term rotation. Would I choose a van or SUV, or instead a small to midsize car? Well, having the room for 5 others to come to CP would be cool. However, I would likely be able to use the trunk and back seats to fit all I'd need. I don't need to get a status-symbolizing vehicle.

As such, I'm leaning towards a car, possibly a Mercury Milan or Ford Fusion I4. That engine is rated by the EPA as getting 23/31mpg city/hwy. A forum I read on the car suggests that people are getting even more than that. A minivan, such as the new Kia Sedona my dad suggested, would get potentially 18/25mpg, although reports show its hard to get that much.

It's roomy enough for me, and that includes a lot of time in the back seat. That's all I'm going to need throughout high school, if not more. I'm sick of all these Jeeps, Hummers, and other SUVs that I see in the student lot at my high school. That is, knowing full well that its likely the property of some snotty, stuck-up, rich brat who gets whatever they want so their parents get them to shut up. Again, if the student has such a need, I don't see any problem with that, at all. Otherwise, there is no need to fill the lots with such wastes.

</my_opinionated_response>

So you must have a lot of rich brats then. (rolls eyes) Being a Jeep owner myself, I've never been happier. So if someone buys a Ford F150 and doesnt use it tow, its a waste? If someone buys a Jeep and doesn't go off-roading its a waste? If someone buys a Geo and drives it once a week, its a waste?

While there are stuck up kids out there, and I know a few of them, you can't generalize that everyone buys a car for every single little feature and if they dont use every single little feature its a waste.

No, Jeeps don't have to be used for offroading. If its used for something that it gives as an advantage over a smaller car, such as being able to seat or haul more, that's good.

A pickup isn't necessarily to tow things, it kinda has a thing in the back called a "bed" where you can "put stuff." If that's not used to carry too much too often, then yeah, there's no need there. Do what was suggested above and rent a Home Depot truck for $20 an hour.

Anyway...

Walt said:
Only one type of vehicle seems to get the bulk of the blame though, even though its efficiency isn't far off from many other types. And that's assuming that transportation itself is 100% of the problem.

If a Ford Explorer does 15 mpg, and your typical "small" car gets 30 mpg, that's really far off! No one is saying it's 100% of the problem, but it is one of the problems that is most easily addressed. You are suggesting to just give up because it's only one part of the problem.

Simply making the choice to drive an SUV doesn't make you inherently evil. Is the SUV really the #1 problem in this country, or is it despised because of the perceived culture they supposedly represent? If the typical SUV got 40 mpg, would you be any more inclined to buy one?

Yeah, of course! It's not about being evil or where it ranks in the scope of the climate change problem. You're implying that because you don't think it's a slam dunk problem, it's easier just to ignore it. That's what I was saying about looking at the bigger picture.

One person... Another person... Another person... So who's right?

You keep going back to that. It's not about who's right, it's about minimizing your own impact. You don't do these things because someone else thinks you should, you do it because you want to take responsibility for the state of the world that you have to share and hand down to your offspring. You can look at the science and conclude it's reasonable and rational, and act accordingly. This is not about being adversarial or trendy or political. *** Edited 5/6/2007 11:34:34 PM UTC by Jeff***

The global warming/energy crisis hinges in large part on two unresolved problems: how to make renewable energy more efficient, and energy storage.

Photovoltaic panels suffer in the free market because the cost per kilowatt produced is still three times that of conventional, fossil fuel-based electricity production. Wind, also, has yet to win the price battle with conventional energy.

Technology continues to advance in both areas, and it is safe to predict that within the next 50 years, these problems will be resolved and renewable energy will win the competition with burning dinosaurs.

The othe problem, energy storage, places an effective maximum on the percentage of energy that the electric grid can derive from renewables. The problem with solar and wind is that, being supplied by nature, these sources are unreliable and prone to fluctuate on virtually a minute-by-minute basis. As long as this is the case, no more than about 15 - 20 % of the energy fed into the grid can come from these sources. The grid is fixed, and slow to respond to dramatic changes in voltage. The only way to overcome this problem is channel the fluctuating voltage feed into a storage system, which means basically batteries or capacitors. Recent improvements in capacitor technology suggest that in the not-too-distant future, it should be a reliable and cheap method of large-scale energy storage, which can then be tapped as needed.

These problems are technological, and none of them are beyond the scope of science to address. What we need is to rev up the research with funds tied to results. An X-Prize for Energy, if you will. The investment and urgency of the Manhattan Project is what is required, to get this problem solved quickly.

In the meantime, appropriate steps to cushion the effects of our carbon-based energy usage need to be taken, in terms of conservation, and in terms of tax incentives and penalties.

In the long term, this problem will go away, and future generations can then proceed with cleaning up the mess we're making. But it takes diligence and focus now to make it happen.

I think the big problem is that the general cultrue of our society is short sited. They buy the $0.50 light bulb that will cost $10.00 more in electricity than the $5.00 light bulb because its cheaper now. They buy the SUV because the enviornmental impact of the car won't make a noticible difference for 20 years, and I want the car NOW.

To try and make the change will cost money. The legislatures often don't want to be the ones to put the money up becuase it won't make the voters happy NOW. The legislatures are only concerned about keeping the voters happy with what is going to happen for the next 2 or 6 years.

Jeff said:
You're implying that because you don't think it's a slam dunk problem, it's easier just to ignore it.

On the flip side, I think that because you don't personally see the benefits, it's easier to attack.

you do it because you want to take responsibility for the state of the world that you have to share and hand down to your offspring.

Right. And where you think SUV use is irresponsible, I don't. It doesn't mean I'm wrong. It means we have different opinions. There is no black and white line, no scientific law that gives one vehicle a thumbs up and the other a thumbs down.

Mike is right. The answer is technology. In the meantime, we do what we can. You balance your impact against the environment to your impact against your life. A fuel efficient car still contributes to the problem. But you still drive the car, because of the benefits to your life. My line is drawn in a different place. Merely having an SUV does not mean I'm not cognizant of the world around me.

Coincidently, I sat down this afternoon and pulled up 20/20 on my DVR (powered by electricity produced with fossil fuel). One of the segments was about common myths. Myth #1? Ethanol is the solution to America's oil dependency.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3130684&page=1