Extended Closure

Just here for a random comment that at the end of the day this is just a conversation about a roller coaster. It's all good, friends.

...separately, I'm curious to see how Falcon's Flight trains deal with the speed, temps, and sand. That will be a tough one to keep in good condition.

That is a good question and the sand is what we thought would be an issue, both for maintenance and for the riders. I am not sure of the weather conditions there but any type of wind seems like it would kick up a lot of sand and cause issues. I couldn't imagine getting sandblasted on a ride like that. I'm guessing they'd have to implement some type of goggle requirement like Formula Rossa.

djDaemon:

veritas55:
Yes, because no one has ever...

Even as someone who generally agrees that this is a pretty major pooch screw situation, your constant horse beating and negativity has grown tiresome.

Then either block me (if the website has that feature) or don't read me.

I think I have but a handful of posts over the past two months and my "constant horse beating" has almost invariably been in direct response to someone's other "horse beating" (which I thought was the point of a forum -- a back and forth.)

Simply pointing out objective facts should not be conflated with "negativity" -- but I guess it often is.

Like what do you want them to do man? Throw some folks in prison?

JUnderhill:

I am not sure of the weather conditions there

Looking at the extended forecast, there isn't a day for the rest of the month there with a high that's under 111°F lol.

magdrag95:
The argument that Intamin is just as bad is foolish...their trains withstood those forces* for 20 years without major incident. The flag plate issue, other than PR considerations, could have been easily rectified by realignment of prox sensors and rebuilt flagging mechanism.

*without data to support this, my argument is that TTD had a more forceful ride than TT2, given the hydraulic launch accelerated in almost double the speed the LSM system does.

I mean, except for the fact that the OG Dragster trains had the Goodyear tires removed on each train after one came dislodged during its inaugural season. Or the cable that frayed and snapped in its second season and a few seasons after that. Wait a minute, didn’t Kingda Ka have the same thing happen a time or two?

How about Wicked Twister’s supports being an issue that caused the ride to be welded every single night until additional supports were added the following season? Or the ride being tamed down to a less intense ride cycle midway through its inaugural season…

Shall we talk about the Shoot the Rapids boats that literally sank during testing…Then also sank with employees in them during an employee ride night before it opened to the public?

Didn’t Maverick need a whole element replaced due to stress on the track, trains, and/ or riders in 2007? I mean, the first roller coaster ever built for amusement park purposes was in 1884. You mean to tell me they had 123 years between then and Maverick to get things right and they still didn’t?

Shhhhh, don't mention the past.

I was very specific about withstanding forces without major incident. How do you even know Intamin put those tires on the trains? Regardless, that fix was easily rectifiable...and how is cable snapping related to the train?

• They still ran WT even with nightly welding because it wasn't critical to operation.
• They still ran TTD sans racing tires.
• They still ran Kingda Ka with a replaced cable.
• They still ran STR with a malfunctioning boat.

...but TT2? You're seeing a live game of operation take place because it simply cannot operate safely in its current state, because if it could, I guarantee you CP would run it if they could throw a bandaid on things each night.

In fairness, IIRC, the tire props at the rear of Dragster's trains were not done by Intamin, they were added to the trains by CP.

A case study in unintended consequences of seemingly simple modifications to a system.

magdrag95:

They still ran WT even with nightly welding because it wasn't critical to operation.

It was a structural deficiency in the design that caused the need for the nightly inspection and welding. During the off-season additional supports were added. Wicked Twister never saw its 20th birthday, it doesn’t exist anymore.

They still ran TTD sans racing tires.

Yes they did run it, sometimes. Seems like it was down more than it ran. Several times throughout the years the cable had to be replaced outside of the normal maintenance intervals, the ride was a maintenance nightmare for the park. TTD never saw its 20th birthday, it doesn’t exist anymore.

They still ran Kingda Ka with a replaced cable.

I can’t speak much for this one but I’ve heard it’s situation is similar to TTD, with the obvious exception of, it still exists.

They still ran STR with a malfunctioning boat

Yes they did run that ride, for close to 5 whole seasons! That is until a boat flipped over, I am still amazed no one lost their life in that one. The quick action by guests was the difference. Shoot the rapids doesn’t exist anymore.

That is a pretty bad record for one park, but at least they got MF and Maverick mostly right so 40% of the modern Intamin rides built since 2000 at Cedar Point are still operating.

As long as Zamperla can right the ship the current closure is likely nothing more than a footnote. If they cannot fix it that would be a major problem for them moving forward. I think they’ll get it, even it that means it stays closed until next season.

I’m still waiting to find out where all the other LSM launched 100+ MPH coasters that traverse a 400’ top hat are located? I’d like to compare those trains to the lightning ones.

TwistedWicker77:

Shall we talk about the Shoot the Rapids boats that literally sank during testing…

You forgot the best part.

DA20Pilot:

As stated in my prior post, I think the fact that it launches 3 times is irrelevant to this issue.

Cool, doesn't mean your opinion is correct. I thought I gave a good example of why launching in two directions matters, and why Wicked Twister was better equipped for this given its train design.

Again, how many of the 100+ mph launched rides even operated today? If I'm to believe the wait time apps, KingdaKa was closed half the day. The data does not support the idea that this is a solved problem.

This thread is better than Days of our Lives or General Hospital. But, sorry. It has nothing on Maury.

Hi maintenance vs. poorly designed are not the same thing. It’s like comparing a Honda civic to a Bugatti Veyron.
The accelerator coasters were damn impressive feats of engineering, but required a ton of maintenance.

Maintenance costs for rides might not matter much to you or I but it is an important variable for the parks that operate them. I am certain that prior to contracting a company to build a new ride expected maintenance costs are factored into the decision. Preventative maintenance and routine replacement of parts would be at intervals recommended by the manufacturer, just like automobile maintenance. This could become an issue for a ride manufacturer if their rides consistently cost a lot more to maintain than what they had initially projected.

JUnderhill:

I’m still waiting to find out where all the other LSM launched 100+ MPH coasters that traverse a 400’ top hat are located? I’d like to compare those trains to the lightning ones.

Okay, so now you have reduced the universe of comparable ride to (1) LSM-driven (not sure why), (2) 100mph+ AND (3) 400' top hat coaster. Should we also add Jeff's requirement that it be a triple-launched?

In your view, none of these three coasters are a decent comparison, much less establish that train technology has existed for many years showing that trains can regularly achieve 100mph+ speeds and traverse a top hat for more than 6 consecutive days, whilst experiencing similar forces to TT2?

1. Top Thrill Dragster. We can list the entire parade of horribles about Intamin and technology of this ride, but it should be relatively uncontroversial that the trains ran nearly two decades without a structural failure, whilst traversing the downward spiral (which is probably the highest stress point on the train on TT2) at the same speeds as TT2. (The tire nonsense wasn't Intamin, and it is unclear whether the flag plate incident was failure of the train OR the track component misaligned, and no finding has put that one on Intamin's train design 20 years down the road.). But this nearly 2-decade history of train performance on nearly the same ride doesn't count because .... not LSM? or the extra time on the straightaway?

2. Kingda Ka. Goes faster and higher than TT2. No known train failure after 15+ years of operation. But also doesn't count because? Not LSM ? Not three launches? Because TT2 extra launch on an entirely straight track fundamentally changed the stresses and demands on the train in a novel way?

3. Red Force. LSM driven. 367 foot height. 112 mph. Ran for nearly 7 years without known train structural failure. Hits your LSM-launch criteria, is over 100 mph, but doesn't count because? Not quite 400 ft? No extra launch?

You don't think we are dancing on the head of a pin here? That these are distinctions without a difference?

Designing a train that could withstand TT2's layout was not some novel, blue-sky, pioneering engineering breakthrough. It just wasn't. That basic layout created comparable forces and had trains running on it without structural failures for many years. Do you think if we had the output data of the stresses experienced during TT2's launches down the straight track and up the straight back spike, those forces would materially exceed what TTD's original layout placed on trains?

Do we really think it's the launch and not the stress going down the spiral that's causing the key structural issues? I know Jeff made an earlier (and good) post) that prolonged shimmying at high speeds could be creating novel forces. And that's fair. But it looks like TT2's layout adds only about 17 seconds of additional 100mph+ time on a straight track? That's the novel, material difference here? (But going over 100mph for 17 seconds is also not a novel feat: even with its trims all over, Formula Rossa spent much more time at 100mph+ over curving track -- for years without structural failure of trains.)

The fact that Zamperla chose to go with a "revolutionary" new, unproven train design does not convert TT2's (mostly preexisting) layout into some novel world of unpredictable forces. These trains didn't fail because of some unforeseeable, brand-new, previously unseen coaster forces: they failed because of bad engineering.

I respect the heights and boundaries that intamin pushed, we still have 2 awesome operating rollercoasters in Millennium Force and Maverick. With that said, I don't understand all the intamin love. 2 of their former rides almost killed people, and the face of the company is an asshat who doesn't care.

In regards to a train launching one direction over LSMs vs going both directions, Ryan the Ride Mechanic had a good explanation as to why it is much more difficult to travel both directions over the stators. Offhand, I can't remember which video it was in.

How many roller coasters have been built that launch a traditional train over 100 MPH vs how many of those are operating today? For the purposes of this discussion, I am excluding Magic Mountain's Superman, and Dream World's Tower of Terror as they use a single car rather than a train.

Top Thrill Dragster - closed permanently, Top Thrill 2 - closed indefinitely, Kingda Ka - open. Formula Rossa - Closed indefinitely, do-dodonpa - closed permanently, Ring Racer - closed permanently.

If building a coaster train that goes over 100 MPH is such a "done deal" and so easy to do, why has it been attempted six times, and only one of the rides is running right now? Any why have four of the attempts seriously injured people or had failures that could have seriously injured people? (Dragster - Threw a flag plate et.al., Kingda Ka - shredded the bottom of the train, Ring Racer - injured staff when the pneumatic system exploded, Do-Dodonpa - reports of riders bones being broken.)

Now, I will admit this closure certainly should NOT have happened. However, when you look at the history of 100MPH coasters, a closure like this certainly isn't unprecedented.

veritas55:

Okay, so now you have reduced the universe of comparable ride to (1) LSM-driven (not sure why), (2) 100mph+ AND (3) 400' top hat coaster.

I want to compare an LSM train to the ones at TT2, I didn’t realize Red Force was an LSM. For some reason I thought it was hydraulic like the others. Thats a perfect comparison of the trains and wheel assemblies as Red Force has similar spirals.

I never said the launch was the issue, I think the issue at TT2 is that the trains cannot handle the forces on the spirals. The forces on both the upward and downward spiral on TT2 were much more intense that TTD ever was.

There was a noticeable shimmy as well, the shimmy could have contributed to the problem or it could have been caused by the problem with the trains. I think it’s the latter, only because I thought the shimmy was getting worse the more I rode the ride. That is of course very subjective, my daughter disagrees with me on this and says the shimmy was more noticeable in certain rows but was not any worse overall.