Cedar Point's 2011 ride will target thrill seekers

That's actually an idea I don't agree with. My company has built massive parking garages, we have one in Detroit with over 500 spaces. It's footprint is maybe a small coaster or two. So if you go and build a parking garage (around $8-$20 million) and you only gain enough room to put in one coaster, you can go ahead and add that cost to the coaster which would make it's effective cost WAY too high to justify.

JuggaLotus said:

You mean the company wide numbers that don't break down by park and could very well be masking under performance by the flagship?

It was a joke man, relax... here breathe into this bag *hands paper bag*

It is possible that Cedar Points attendance is down, but the companywide average is up 7%, I'll put that down as your thought.

JuggaLotus said:

Kyle2154 said:
Yeah, and I think the drop in revenue and attendance last quarter reflect that.

... oh wait ;)

You mean the company wide numbers that don't break down by park and could very well be masking under performance by the flagship?

Indeed:

“We have seen an increase in season-pass visits, particularly in the western and southern regions,” added Kinzel. “Season-pass attendance during this time was up when compared with the same period a year ago. Our strategy of continuously reinvesting in our parks – including new roller coasters at Kings Dominion and Carowinds – coupled with an aggressive marketing and pricing strategy, has worked thus far to help drive increased season pass sales in these regions. In addition, attendance through the first six months of 2010 benefited from a modest increase in early-season group sales as many of our parks saw the return of some group bookings that did not occur in 2009.”

Plus, improving over last year isn't exactly cause to break out the champagne.

I guess my point is don't read too much into the numbers that were released. The company only releases those that will look good to investors, not the full story.

It's funny there was all of the assurance from individuals that the high pop prices were gonna bite them and take their toll on Cedar Point. But when the results come out it may or may not be because of Cedar Point?

So when the numbers are bad we reference Cedar Point but when they are good we don't?

Interesting...

The numbers don't tell you anything about Cedar Point.

As DJ highlighted above, even CF is admitting that their increases are due to increases in the west and south. So unless south is everything but Canada's Wonderland, it doesn't include Cedar Point.

So while nothing specific is stated about Cedar Point, I'd say the increases are DESPITE them, not because of them.

But that's just my take. Like I said, the numbers don't say anything specific about Cedar Point. So neither one of us can state definitively whether the park is doing well or not.

You think a 7% increase in attendance is "despite" Cedar Point this year? Wow...

Literally, Cedar Fair is up 7% in attendance, 4.4% in revenue, and up 20% in EBITDA (excluding financing and merging costs) and you are still maintain how bad Cedar Point is doing.

Basically, no matter what you hear you will continue to believe this, is that correct? There is no financial statistic, no concrete number or anything that can be given to you, you will forever maintain that CP is doing poor?

I've not been to the park, so I have no idea how busy it has/hasn't been.

But when they make no mention of attendance increases in their Ohio parks, and specifically state that it is the western and southern parks that have seen increases, that leads me to believe that Cedar Point isn't really contributing to that increase.

Can you point to something that says otherwise? I'd like to see somewhere that says Cedar Point has gone up. Heck I'd love to see the park seeing attendance gains again. But I don't think it's happening and the park's own press release seems to be saying as much.

All that I can point to is the Cedar Fair financials. Yes, all 10 times I've been to the park this year it has been slammed, I've read a lot of trip reports saying the same thing, but does that really mean much? Do the financial statements? At what point is it impossible to convince someone?

If it has been packed, then maybe they are up and I'm wrong. But that's not what the company is saying. So maybe CF needs to get a new PR firm.

I can't say I've read any trip reports either as I don't find other people's trips interesting at all.

Where are the reports from the "pr firm" saying Cedar Points attendance is down? I see where they reference parks with new coasters having good years (duh) but 7% is a whopping number and doesn't seem to indicate other parks are obviously doing bad.

If Ohio was up (meaning WWK, CP and KI) I would have expected them to say something about that area being up (much like they mentioned the South and Western parks).

And maybe it's just the way I read it, but it sounds more like the company wide attendance increase is on the backs of increased season pass visits in the South and West and increased group events all around, rather than attendance being up at all parks.

I'm not saying the park is dead either, or that attendance is way down. Just that the way the parks release is worded indicates CP isn't really up either, just more of a year-to-year flat line.

I hear what you're saying, but it bugs me. I watched people harp on all kinds of crap in the offseason and early season, how bad the park is for raisings prices on this or that, then when positive, real positive, numbers come out, we just discredit them.

And I swear to God, if Dick had said Cedar Point was having a great year, someone would have said "Wow! way to go...no emphasis on the smaller parks in the chain! What a moron!"

I've made no secret that I'm one of those in the camp that the higher in park prices are an issue. And I see your point. When something positive comes out it does seem to get pushed to the side in favor of the "I'm right you're wrong hahahahah" posts. And I don't mean to come off that way if it seems so.

And I'm not discrediting the numbers. I think the numbers are very good for Cedar Fair, especially after that debacle of a sale attempt. The fact that they are seeing attendance and spending increases as a whole are very good signs that the company did not need to be sold. But I'm just bugged by the wording of what they've said.

It just seems to me that this is just masking CPs numbers. Which if it isn't, and CP is seeing some economic bounceback this year, then Cedar Fair needs a new PR firm, because the wording in this release is very misleading.

I have to wonder why Cedar Fair considers Cedar Point the "crown jewel". According to this Cedar Point sees less people than Knott's, Kings Island, or Canada's Wonderland. My thought process is that Cedar Point must gush money (in a good way). Even Dick in his interview references how CP is the crown jewel because "We have 1,400 hotel rooms. We have four hotels here. Two marinas..."

If Cedar Point is 4th in the chain (out of only 11) in attendance, it only makes sense that they are the "crown jewel" because of their stellar performance. No, I can't say CP is up in attendance this year, but if the chain is up across the board in all kinds of categories, I certainly don't think it means they're doing bad.

Well after staying at Sandcastle for the first time this May, I was astounded by how much room is actually still left at Campers Village. Im pretty sure that this will cease to exist eventually. At $86 a night for a space, I think its a loss CP can take. Also from my recollection, its not very full May/June so why not use all that great space for a new Midway.

Kyle Cedar Point is considered the flagship/crown jewl because of those reasons. CP is the only park of the chain that has a whole resort area. The park is like a small city owned by Cedar Fair, with all money going to Cedar Fair. This is why even with it not having the highest attendence it grosses a lot more money than single day parks.

Yes, and that is exactly my point. Cedar Fair had a great 2nd quarter, so why blame the best player on the team? More then likely they were a positive contributor.

Kyle - by no means do I think they are doing bad. I just don't think they've seen the improvement this season that other parks in the chain have had. But I could be (and hope I am) wrong.

HSBR - I doubt it. At $86 bucks/night/pad Cedar Point likely sees $80 of profit. You don't need to pay a maid to go clean rooms, there's no hallways to vacuum, no laundry to do, no freebies (soap, lotion, etc.) to provide. There is literally almost zero cost to providing the paved pads for people to park a camper on. And unlike a half empty hotel that still needs to be heated/cooled, a half empty Camper Village doesn't need to be. I'd wager that Camper Village is one of their more profitable resorts on a per room/pad/cabin basis.