Cedar Point 2012

Is the park not a business? Thats rhetorical.

I have fond memories of Demon Drop, Pirate ride, Chaos, The dolphin show, the Aquarium, Dodgem II, Oceam Motions old location, White Water Landing (especially that ride), the double ferris wheel, Earthquake, Jungle Larry and that list goes on.

What did that do for the park? Why did they remove when so many people have fond memories of those? I mean, my memories printed money for them, right? So why did they get rid of it?

It's a ridiculous assumption to think memories mean business for Cedar Point.

PrawoJazdy said:
...Jungle Larry which is gone and the aquarium which is also gone and the dolphin show, also gone.

So... you're saying that because they've stripped the park of nearly all non-thrill rides, they should get rid of the few that remain? That doesn't make much sense.

...it really does nothing for the park. It's not a winner for Cedar Point and its not a loser either. If it disappears, no one is going to miss it to the point they will stop coming to the park.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If families have to make choices about how best to spend their discretionary dollars, it would seem to me that having the widest variety of attractions possible goes a long way toward attraction said dollars. Narrowing your target audience shrinks your business.

PrawoJazdy said:
I have fond memories of...

What did that do for the park?

In your case, it seems to have made you a pretty big fan of the park, who continues to show up every year. And I suspect that if you have a family now, or have one in the future, you'll bring them along at least once or twice.

Why did they remove when so many people have fond memories of those?

Because Dick thought wrongly that simply building a massive rolly coaster every couple years was a sustainable business model. It took him almost twenty years to learn that he was at least partly wrong about that.

It's a ridiculous assumption to think memories mean business for Cedar Point.

I bet more than a few here would disagree with that notion.

You really disagree "wholeheartedly" that getting rid of the petting zoo would cause people to no longer go to the park? I wholeheartedly disagree with your assessment.

djDaemon said:

So... you're saying that because they've stripped the park of nearly all non-thrill rides, they should get rid of the few that remain? That doesn't make much sense.

What doesn't make sense is putting words in my mouth. I did not say that. You should probably read the post I made. I'm not sure how you even gathered that from what I wrote. A crazy man sees what he sees I guess.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If families have to make choices about how best to spend their discretionary dollars, it would seem to me that having the widest variety of attractions possible goes a long way toward attraction said dollars. Narrowing your target audience shrinks your business.

Obviously. I don't think I've ever argued against having a wide variety of attractions. However you disagree, so if Cedar Point were to remove the petting zoo, would you stop going?

I'm curious and this question is directed at everyone. If Cedar Point does remove it, how many of you will stop going?

In your case, it seems to have made you a pretty big fan of the park, who continues to show up every year. And I suspect that if you have a family now, or have one in the future, you'll bring them along at least once or twice.

I go for the coasters and the occasional ride on Paddle Wheel. Like a majority of Cedar Fair's visitors. They can emphasize families all they want, and build new family attractions. Planet snoopy would attract me if I had young kids and the petting zoo is the last thing my nephews care about.

Because Dick thought wrongly that simply building a massive rolly coaster every couple years was a sustainable business model. It took him almost twenty years to learn that he was at least partly wrong about that.

Did attendance go down or up during those years? Did they increase their profit from single to double digit millions? There is no proof the removal of those rides changed attendance or profit.

I bet more than a few here would disagree with that notion.

So? Just because more than a few people on an enthusiast message board disagree, doesn't make it so.

PrawoJazdy said:
You should probably read the post I made.
A crazy man sees what he sees I guess.

Are the insults necessary?

...if Cedar Point were to remove the petting zoo, would you stop going?

If I had kids, then possibly, but let's not confuse the issue here. This discussion isn't about the petting zoo itself, but rather the pattern that Pete pointed out - the park has been removing much of the variety from the park's offerings. What's left is great if you're an enthusiast, not so much if you have families. I'm not suggesting CP needs to remove roller coasters in order to build family-friendly attractions, but I think they need to stop doing the opposite.

Did attendance go down or up during those years?

Well, they kept building record-breaking eight figure thrill rides, and attendance was flat. So while the focus on building thrill rides was merited to some degree, that focus may also have been too narrow. In fact, spreading out those installations (using intermediate years to invest heavily in family attractions) might have been a better plan.

Thankfully, the park doesn't lack in the thrill ride department. As such, there's simply not much left that they don't have, so hopefully their focus in the future will be on rounding out their attraction lineup.

If I had kids, then possibly,...

Really? "sorry kids, we are not going to the rides at Planet Snoopy, no Thunder Canyon and definitely not the shows you like. No Shoot the Rapids either and certainly no Jr. Gemini. They closed the petting zoo... Yes the petting zoo that you can see at basically any fair. STOP CRYING. They took daddy's memories!"

...but let's not confuse the issue here. This discussion isn't about the petting zoo itself, but rather the pattern that Pete pointed out - the park has been removing much of the variety from the park's offerings.

You should read the posts again. I was discussing the petting zoo just as CPfanatic was. You can shape it however you want, but the discussion was about the petting zoo.

You forgot they added to the variety. Shoot the Rapids, Planet Snoopy, overhauling Ocean Motion, new shows, both water parks, Kiddy Kingdom was added during the coaster boom, Disaster Transport is still there, Space Spiral, Frog Hopper... Should I go on?

PrawoJazdy said:

djDaemon said:

Do you have any data to back this up? Or is this a case of I think it's dumb, therefore everyone must think it's dumb style of thinking?

And are you really, seriously suggesting that the mere existence of a petting zoo makes people not want to visit CP? Again, based on what data?

What if kids/families are amused by animal shows?

Are you suggesting people come to Cedar Point to see the petting zoo? Do have any data to back that up?

Can you be any more unreasonable to this persons observation? I get what he is saying and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand it. The petting zoo is not a huge part of the park. Pete mentions Jungle Larry which is gone and the aquarium which is also gone and the dolphin show, also gone.

I like the petting zoo a lot and have memories of it just like everyone else, but it really does nothing for the park. It's not a winner for Cedar Point and its not a loser either. If it disappears, no one is going to miss it to the point they will stop coming to the park.

Thank you!

PrawoJazdy said:
Really? "sorry kids..."

What I mean is that there are a lot of other alternatives when you have a family. And while Disney may be more expensive, it very well may offer a much better value proposition to families than CP. I don't expect any of CF's parks to raise their game to Disney's level, but why shouldn't CP at least go after some of that money?

...the discussion was about the petting zoo.

This year. And had this board existed 25 years ago, we'd have discussed Jungle Larry's in a similar way. And the aquarium. And the dolphin show.

You forgot they added to the variety. Shoot the Rapids...

That replaced a ride that was removed, which means no variety was added.

Planet Snoopy, overhauling Ocean Motion...

Planet Snoopy was a nice move by the park. Ocean Motion isn't an addition - in fact, the park nearly removed it entirely. Thankfully, they came to their senses. Still, it's existence doesn't add variety that didn't previously exist.

new shows, both water parks, Kiddy Kingdom was added during the coaster boom, Disaster Transport is still there, Space Spiral, Frog Hopper... Should I go on?

The shows have been neutered so horrifically that I'm shocked you even brought them up. In fact, Live Entertainment is a prime example of CF's unwillingness to spend money on things that aren't thrill rides.

Kiddy Kingdom is not a family-friendly attraction(s). It's a bunch of rides that are nearly identical, and parents are relegated to a spectator role. I'm not sure how exciting that is for parents, but I can't see myself being very excited to watch my kid go in circles for a couple hours.

Disaster Transport is a nice family ride, but only relative to CP's other offerings. You still need to be 46" tall to ride, which is somewhat limiting. And I think that's part of the problem. There's a ton to do if you're over 48" and love thrill rides. There's some stuff to do if you're a small child who's amused by riding in circles over and over and over, albeit on slightly different vehicles. But there's very little that everyone - the young kids, mom & dad, etc. - can ride together. Disney, for example, has tons of things that fit that bill. I'm not suggesting CP should copy what Disney does "word-for-word", but it wouldn't hurt to take notes.

And Space Spiral? Seriously?

And might I add that I don't see Petting Farm going anywhere, but at the same time, I would not be surprised to see it go away. It's something that is just there, taking up space (for good reasons), but it's the same thing you see at every zoo, carnival, county fair, and Ohio backroads. There are many other family attractions that could be added to the park to continue the tradition of making family memories and having a good time.

Sorry to interrupt the 3-way shouting match, but I can't even find the petting zoo on Cedar Point's website. Am I missing something?

I totally disagree that the Petting Farm does nothing. Stop by the pet farm and see how many people take pictures and love interacting with the animals. It has been a CP tradition for decades and is part of what gives the park some (I hate to say it here) charm. I miss the blacksmith and glass blowing shows and wish those would return and I certainly want the pet farm to stay.

^When did they eliminate the blacksmith and the glass blowing? perhaps they just don't start that until Memorial Day? I distinctly remember them from last year, and they were really cool. It'd be a real shame to see them go.

As per this Petting Zoo war, I'd like to add my two cents. While families most likely don't come to the park for this experience, it's one of those things that really adds to a great day. It really makes a great stop for the kids, especially the young ones, to see and interact with many of the animals that they couldn't/wouldn't interact with otherwise. It also provides a pleasant place for parents to sit and relax while the kids enjoy the animals. And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the barn that sits on that site one of the Ohio Bicentennial barns? Wouldn't that make it a historical landmark, making it illegal to tear down?

....if all else fails, use the barn for that awesome new dark ride!

Honestly, I'm not sure if those could be taken down or not. I've never thought about that one before.

The petting zoo could also very easily be moved to a different location if it were to be necessary...

As for the barn being one of those land marks.. I'm not sure.

As a father of 5 kids, all under 8 years old. I can say that my kids and I would be very upset if the petting zoo was removed. While it doesn't have the thrill of the kite eating tree or the camp bus, my kids want to go in there every visit.

First, let's remember that the demographic that truly matters to Cedar Point's bottom line is families, namely parents with children. And yes, there is plenty of data to back that up. We spend the money. Not teens, not 20 or even 30 somethings (or any somethings) who are either single or childless. And I am not saying that to be snarky, it's just a fact.

As a father, I have a whole new appreciation for family-oriented rides. I cannot wait until the day arrives that both of my children will be 46-48 inches tall (actually I can because they grow up way too fast!) so that they can start exploring the world of coasters. That said, what Cedar Point lacks is in one area and one area alone (and no, the word thrill is not in it): attractions that an entire family can enjoy together.

I am not talking about something like the "train", I am talking about something like the Pirate Ride, or Earthquake...or the Petting Far m.

My point is, from this parent's perspective, it makes zero sense in every way imaginable to remove an attraction from the one area where you are already lacking. My daughter adores the Petting Farm. In fact, as an adult, I enjoy it. It adds atmosphere. It adds charm. It adds a dimension that is not found in every park. It actually makes Cedar Point unique.

+1 Kevin, very well said.

RideWarrior18 said:^When did they eliminate the blacksmith and the glass blowing? perhaps they just don't start that until Memorial Day? I distinctly remember them from last year, and they were really cool. It'd be a real shame to see them go.

Well, I didn't see the blacksmith's shop open last year, and I really didn't see activity at the glass blowing arena, I could be wrong about the shows being gone though. I hope I'm wrong, I'll have to make more of an effort to see if there is anything going on there this year. They don't seem to have a section about Frontier Trail on the website so I haven't seen any official information.

Kevinj said:
First, let's remember that the demographic that truly matters to Cedar Point's bottom line is families, namely parents with children. And yes, there is plenty of data to back that up. We spend the money. Not teens, not 20 or even 30 somethings (or any somethings) who are either single or childless. And I am not saying that to be snarky, it's just a fact.

As a father, I have a whole new appreciation for family-oriented rides. I cannot wait until the day arrives that both of my children will be 46-48 inches tall (actually I can because they grow up way too fast!) so that they can start exploring the world of coasters. That said, what Cedar Point lacks is lacking is in one area and one area alone (and no, the word thrill is not in it): attractions that an entire family can enjoy together.

I am not talking about something like the "train", I am talking about something like the Pirate Ride, or Earthquake...or the Petting Far m.

My point is, from this parent's perspective, it makes zero sense in every way imaginable to remove an attraction from the one area where you are already lacking. My daughter adores the Petting Farm. In fact, as an adult, I enjoy it. It adds atmosphere. It adds charm. It adds a dimension that is not found in every park. It actually makes Cedar Point unique.

I am 17 years old and I can say that I agree with you on what you say about people aged Teens-30's not bringing in the cash flow.

I have aunts and uncles who absolutely hate thrill rides at Cedar Point. The only reason they go is because my little cousins (ages 4-8) love seeing snoopy and going to Kiddie Kingdom, Planet Snoopy, Camp Snoopy etc... They like to see their kids have fun.

However, with me being 17, I would much rather see a new coaster than the petting zoo staying, but I am sure that one day when I have a family of my own, I will feel the same way that you do.

I think we need to look at it this way...

Families that go to Cedar Point are the most important because they are bringing in a majority of the money. There are far more families out there at Cedar Point right now than thrill seekers and coaster lovers on any given day. So too all of us who are cosater lovers and thrill seekers; if Cedar Point were to not think about the families, Cedar Point would probably be in a HUGE amount of financial trouble. Thrill rides are very very expensive. If Cedar Point were to get a new thrill ride or coaster every year, they would lose a lot of the family crowd. If Cedar Point loses the family crowd, CP will lose money. If CP loses money, CP won't be able to afford all these thrill rides and roller coasters we love.

I'm not saying that if we remove a petting zoo it is going to kill off all of the families that go to Cedar Point, but its the idea that taking away family atractions could hurt Cedar Point in the long run.

To me personally, I don't really care what happens to the petting zoo. However after reading all of the comments above, there seems to be many people who do care what happens to the petting zoo and don't think it should be removed.

We all have our different opinions.

There is no use argueing over this petting zoo. Those who want the petting zoo to stay and those who want it removed/don't care what happens to it will probably never agree.

What I mean is that there are a lot of other alternatives when you have a family. And while Disney may be more expensive, it very well may offer a much better value proposition to families than CP. I don't expect any of CF's parks to raise their game to Disney's level, but why shouldn't CP at least go after some of that money?

Because they're wasting money. Don't waste it chasing something they will never ever reach. The only time Cedar Point can take money from Disney is when the economy is bad and people have to scale back. Other than that their chasing something they'll never catch.

This year. And had this board existed 25 years ago, we'd have discussed Jungle Larry's in a similar way. And the aquarium. And the dolphin show.

And they'd still take it out and I'm glad they did. It wasn't racking up guests and it certainly wouldn't today.

That replaced a ride that was removed, which means no variety was added.

But it's still variety no matter how you slice it.

Planet Snoopy was a nice move by the park. Ocean Motion isn't an addition - in fact, the park nearly removed it entirely. Thankfully, they came to their senses. Still, it's existence doesn't add variety that didn't previously exist.

Semantics. Variety is still there. You claim there is none, yet it exists. Overhauling Ocean Motion does a lot. Most people didn't even know it existed and now they can't miss it. If you look outside of enthusiast boards, you'll see the big picture. Holing up in here is not any way to get an indication of how things work.

The shows have been neutered so horrifically that I'm shocked you even brought them up. In fact, Live Entertainment is a prime example of CF's unwillingness to spend money on things that aren't thrill rides.

No one outside of this message board cares about the lack of a band. Again, you have to go outside to see it. You're not seeing it. If the shows are so terrible, tell me why its so hard to get a seat at any of them?

Kiddy Kingdom is not a family-friendly attraction(s). It's a bunch of rides that are nearly identical, and parents are relegated to a spectator role. I'm not sure how exciting that is for parents, but I can't see myself being very excited to watch my kid go in circles for a couple hours.

Well then you're not ready to be a parent because that's all it is. There is still something to do for everyone at Cedar Point. Otherwise, they would make no money. Its funny how everyone here (and no where else) argues that Cedar Point has nothing to do for everyone in the family, yet families still come in droves to the park every day by the hundreds. You're telling me there is no forest beyond the tree's?

And Space Spiral? Seriously?

Yes seriously. Everyone can ride it.

Pete said:
I totally disagree that the Petting Farm does nothing. Stop by the pet farm and see how many people take pictures and love interacting with the animals. It has been a CP tradition for decades and is part of what gives the park some (I hate to say it here) charm. I miss the blacksmith and glass blowing shows and wish those would return and I certainly want the pet farm to stay.

If CP tradition really meant something, Demon Drop and damn near everything else they took out would not have been removed.

Money vs. Tradition

Which one do you think wins?

Anecdotal evidence proves nothing. I saw a bunch of families taking pictures in front of White Water Landing's cave 20 years ago, and it was gone before the ride was. Remember the ball fountain and the Pirate Ship outside the Pirate Ride? Tons of pictures, I have albums full of those areas. Yet, they're gone.

You can't make an informed decision based on a couple of small observations.

These are really some ridiculous notions that because people have memories it shouldn't go anywhere. History has proven that wrong time and time again.