Boardwalk Project 2016

All the problems you mentioned are engineering or other issues that are the fault of the vendors. What do you expect CP to do if the machinery that is delivered has issues? They went with B&M for Gatekeeper and the ride has been spectacular.

^^All I can say to that

**** happens

The park does everything it can to keep rides open as much as they safely can, end of story.

Btw how can you improve capacity beyond theoretical limits? Want me to dispatch two trains on the lift hill other than DT? K then

How do you know the fault lies in the engineering and vendors? It's strange how people can justify just the right amount influence CP staff has when putting in something new so that when it's right they get the credit and when it's wrong, it's not their fault. Doesn't Monty Jasper get involved with these designs along with the rest of the staff to insure the design is accurate and sustainable?

BTW... You actually can improve the capacity of an attraction by studying the queue length and determining the issues involved in the load/unload process. Pit crews in car racing have been doing it for years.

Gatekeeper is a great example of this sort of continuous improvement. By identifying riders that may have issues fitting into the seats and directing them to a specific row, the overall loading time is reduced, the staff is less worked relocating riders, and those marginal sized passengers that might not fit in the first row still get their ride.

SteveH said:
How do you know the fault lies in the engineering and vendors?

Because we know how the industry works.

Gatekeeper is a great example of this sort of continuous improvement. By identifying riders that may have issues fitting into the seats and directing them to a specific row...

That's because GK was designed with that process in mind. There's little that can be done to improve capacity beyond what the design allows.

Strange how the industry doesn't work that way for Disney or Universal. And it's equally strange your "inside knowledge" (A.K.A. "we know") is the source for that justification.

GK can be improved in terms of capacity. If that one process was considered and implemented - there are likely other processes that were never thought of when it was initially designed.

After a season of activity, there has to be a lot of data accumulated as to where bottlenecks exist and what system faults take place more than they should. The off season is when this data results in "tweaks" that improve these efficiencies and result in more throughput.

There is a capacity limit for every ride that cannot be exceeded (without redesigning/rebuilding the ride). There are ways to get close to that design limit, but those ways cost money. At a certain point (yes, even for Disney and Universal), there's not enough improvement to warrant the investment.

You mean like all the issues Test Track at Disney had? It was supposed to open in May of 1997, the actual opening was March of 1999, almost 2 YEARS late!

Or do you mean maintenance failures at Disney like Big Thunder derailing and killing someone?

Or, do you mean operational failures at Disney, like the docking failure that caused a cleat from the Columbia to come flying off, killing a man and disfiguring his wife?

When was the last time a mechanical failure killed someone at Cedar Point? The answer would be never.

Maybe Disney could learn something from Cedar Point?

^Thank you..

The biggest things I can see to improve ride capacity/operations is to remove some unnecessary/redundant processes, but those are few and far inbetween that I notice. Plus the park will argue some safety varibles, which even though I know they're safe, they have the potential to help, and that is enough reason to keep them.

Pete, so far - Cedar Point has been relatively lucky, but remember it is a seasonal park, and has a fraction of the yearly attendance compared to Disney.

If you consider Cedar Fair as a entity however...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_at_Cedar_Fair_parks
The list is considerable.

Admittedly Disney does come in late on some schedules, however they also have 29 individual vehicles on Test Track making it one of the most complicated programming tasks ever attempted in such a attraction.

I think we all have to never stop learning.

I wouldn't call CP's lack of fatalities lucky, I'd call it proper dedication..

Also some of the CF accidents you list were at the parks prior to CF ownership (see KI, while at PKI)

I guess I am now eligible for that "proper dedication" discount from Progressive Insurance on my car! Gotta go call Flo!

True, some incidents were prior CF ownership. But the list is still quite long and only serves to counter the Disney remarks from Pete.

While I would never look forward for an accident to occur, they are called accidents because the series of events leading up to them was unexpected. If it had been thought of, I am sure preventative measures would have been put in place to prevent it.

Cedar Fair is highly regarded for their safety record in the industry. Compare them to other companies that use outside vendors for the bulk of their attractions such as Six Flags or SeaWorld Entertainment and their safety record is far superior. Disney is an apple to the orange or Cedar Point. But Disney has a spotty record for much less intense rides.

Capacity has a physical limit based on the design of the individual ride. It is also influenced by the park guests and their actions, as well as state requirements. The park was far from hiding the Shoot the Rapids or SkyHawk issues. They were not making them the biggest news for the park but why would they.

I agree the park has some fault in the extended downtime some attractions have had. But the vendor has blame as well. I wouldn't be surprised if behind closed doors some legal action against S&S and Intamin is occurring.

To break down the logic one more way for you. If you go but a new car and it breaks down because of an improperly designed part or fixing it is delayed because you can't get the part you need. Is that your fault or the company that produced it?

So far, looking at the fatalities/major injuries..lets take a look, these are the ones that happened during CF ownership:

Carowinds--Nighthawk, Minor injuries, no major issues
California's Great America--One kid drowned in a pool
Kings Dominion--Guy had a brain aneurysm, non ride related
Kings Island--SOB issues we all know about, 2009, man died of pre-existing heart condition, rode Firehawk
Knotts--Minor injuries from Butterfield Stagecoach, Montezoomas Revenge pre-existing condition, Perilous Plunge, rider fell out, restraint and seatbelt were buckled however, Pony Express, minor injuries due to failed launch, Xcelerator, cable snapped, lacerations.
Michigan's Adventure--Chaos, 31 minor injuries
Valleyfair--Minor injuries, car became detatched from train in brakes
Worlds of Fun--Orient express, eight minor injuries

So all in all 13 injuries during CF acquisitions of each park. All in all there were 43 incidents reported on that webpage, including 11 CP issues, all minor injuries.

So 70% of all incidents reported there were pre CF acquisition. Only 30% of all accidents were post CF ownership.

Also out of the above only four people lost their lives during CF ownership, compared to the 15 total deaths listed on that page. Note some deaths weren't ride related as well. Still however, not under CF ownership, 74% of all deaths happened, only 26% of all deaths happened under CF ownership.

Parks are doing a pretty good job if you ask me

I am not an actuary but if you die or just get hurt - it counts equal as an accident - at least in my book. The amount of actual blood shed, is kind of irrelevant.

I suppose the ride cycle count of each attraction should also figure into your equations. Because a ride that gets a million patrons a year, compared to one that gets that many riders in a typical Christmas or Spring Break alone - likely sees a lot more wear and tear - and that needs to be reflected in your numbers.

Alright, I calculated that as well again, 70% without CF, 30% with CF...

I see a difference.

I along with practically anyone here doesn't have access to the ride cycle information.

Regardless, so far each of us has proved your point wrong using information, you really haven't presented any case against it so far.

Also looking back into the improve queues, etc. point. Did you also think that the ride operates as intended by the manufacturer and in compliance with that (see Racer in reverse switching back around). Secondly, the PLCs on most rides will only let you dispatch at certain times as safely as it can. For instance, on Corkscrew @ CP, there is a time limit on dispatching. The dispatch button won't light up or be enabled even with both dispatch enables pressed. Also ride SOP states dispatch is halfway through the loop, and is followed.

Again, CF will keep rides open and moving as many people as safely and quickly as they can for as long as they can during an operational day, end of story, it's what we we're paid to do

Cedar Point is the world's best amusement park. When I go to the park, I'm there to enjoy myself, not wander around counting up flaws.

Why is it that every time I come on this thread to talk about a boardwalk I see Steve talking about an unrelated, irrelevant, and hyperbole topic.

If you have a problem with CPs safety, bring it up to them, or create a separate thread. If not, then quit your trollin. I have been to many parks around the US and while some are better in certain areas. Cedar Point is the best all around.

^^I did it just to prove a small point, I agree with you

I went to make a few memories, relax, get away from the normal ebb and flow, and ride some great rides. Safety is important to me, but I know I'm safe. I've been on the other side of things, and now just a plain old guest. I know these guys have it under control.

Just wanted to point out that there is quite a long lead time on unique parts. You can't just go a pick up a new SkyHawk pulley, sprocket, cable, etc. These parts are longer/thicker/bigger than the parts used in factories or other industries. In my industry it might take weeks to get a new reducer or custom made sprocket. SkyHawk did run one arm at the end of the season. I think they made an effort to open it back up. I wouldn't want to ride something thats broken anyways. Same with MaxAir. These aren't hardware store items. If you go to a park that is open all year long at least one ride will be down for preventative maintenence for days.

If they knew 5 months before the rides had problems they could have had the parts in stock. It's easy to second guess the mechanical problems that a park might have. It's not so easy to fix them.

I'm all for a boardwalk along the whole beach that offers stuff for beach goers and is not part of the in park experience. So like a tiki bar, some "surf shacks", snack bar, etc.