Beverage pricing: They're still not listening

Kyle2154 said:
Under that theory Cedar Point has you more 'stuck' so they should charge even more.

They already do, Kyle. And it hasn't been setting the World on fire with success, either.

A large Hot-N-Ready feeds 3 easily, so it's not shocking that it would cost almost $15 at a ballgame. And as has been pointed out, its MUCH easier to avoid that $15 Hot-N-Ready sitting at a 3-hour ball game than it is a 10-hour day of doing nothing but walking.

I also have to say that when you are at a busch park, or Disney park, or kennywood...ect..ect, They have good food and prices. And I am sure that the owners of those parks know that you are stuck there for 10 hours plus. They are not raking you over the coals like cedar point is.

And guess what?....They are all making a profit.

djDaemon said:

crazy horse said:
^^Sounds like something kinzel would say.

That's because he did!

"We've been able to pass along higher food costs very easily," he said. "When people come to the park, they have to eat."

What food is crappy? Wow... How about we go with food that is edible, since that's a shorter list. The pretzels range from acceptable to decent; Chick-Fil-A is decent; Panda Express was, at best, mediocre. And really, that's all I got. There may be more exceptions, but it's tough to recall as I've all but completely stopped eating in the park, choosing only to eat at Fridays and, more recently, Famous Dave's while on the peninsula.

The fries, which used to be one of my favorites, have disappointed me the last 3 or 4 times I've had them.

I think Johnny Rockets is good, Coasters is, and I also think that The Roundup next to Maverick has great food with really good portions. I obviously haven't been everywhere at CP foodwise but still out of all the places I have been too I have found them to be mediocre or good. Nothing bad.

Also, the restaurants you named are also very good. I have never been to Panda Express though.

crazy horse said:
I also have to say that when you are at a busch park, or Disney park, or kennywood...ect..ect, They have good food and prices. And I am sure that the owners of those parks know that you are stuck there for 10 hours plus. They are not raking you over the coals like cedar point is.

And guess what?....They are all making a profit.

Just to point something out about Disney, there is also about 100x more things to do in Florida or California that they have to compete with. I have a good feeling that if Disney was surrounded by the same 100 miles as Sandusky they would charge a lot as well.

You have to look at it for what it is, are there really a substantial amout of people who are so fed up with Cedar Points $5 pop they are going to drive a few hundred miles to Six Flags or Busch, or book a plane ticket to Disney?

The last time I ate at Johnny Rockets (in 2003, I think), I thought it was decent, and not terrible for the price. But I've heard the value proposition has decreased since then. Perhaps we'll give it another try, if I hear good things.

Kyle2154 said:
Just to point something out about Disney, there is also about 100x more things to do in Florida or California that they have to compete with.

And CP is no longer simply competing with other amusement parks. Movies, video games and the like are all competition these days. And CP doesn't seem to be holding the public's attention as they were in the 90's.

I have a good feeling that if Disney was surrounded by the same 100 miles as Sandusky they would charge a lot as well.

I dunno. Disney has a fairly captive audience - one that, it seems, stays on-property at a higher rate than CP's guests. If that's true (and I have no idea if it is), then Disney arguably has a MORE captive audience, yet treats them better. And guess what Disney gets in return? Lots of guests willing to open their pockets (even in a recession).

Different people have different views/expectations. But to me, food is more a part of the baseball and movie experiences than it is an amusement park experience. Its not a baseball game until I have had a hotdog. Its not a movie without a tub of popcorn. That isn't the case at all for me with a trip to an amusement park (other than maybe saltwater taffy).

When looking at rides (the reason I go to an amusement park), I would rank the 4 parks mentioned: 1. Cedar Point, 2. Busch Gardens (Williamsburg), 3. Kennywood and 4. Disney. We had some good food at Busch Gardens and went to some nice restaurants at Disney. Can't remember anything really remarkable at either CP or Kennywood in terms of food. But if you asked me which park I want to return to, I would put then in the order of ride preference.

djDaemon said:

And CP is no longer simply competing with other amusement parks. Movies, video games and the like are all competition these days. And CP doesn't seem to be holding the public's attention as they were in the 90's.

I don't think movies and video games are competing with the roller coasters at Cedar Point. Maybe to the people who (like us) have the leisure to say 'hey what do you wanna do this saturday?', but not to the people who are getting their once a year amusement park fix.

Cedar Point is an icon, the greatest amusement park in the world, home to 17 coasters, etc., etc....the local cinema is not.

Not to mention movie theatres are yet another example of pricing exploits, like Cedar Point.

Kyle2154 said:

Just to point something out about Disney, there is also about 100x more things to do in Florida or California that they have to compete with. I have a good feeling that if Disney was surrounded by the same 100 miles as Sandusky they would charge a lot as well.

You have to look at it for what it is, are there really a substantial amout of people who are so fed up with Cedar Points $5 pop they are going to drive a few hundred miles to Six Flags or Busch, or book a plane ticket to Disney?

I disagree.

Disney could probaly charge $5 for a soda, but they don't. And guess what.....There guest satisfaction is very high. Maybe people won't rush off to Disney, six flags or busch, but they will stop buying sodas and food at cedar point or even stop going all together.

How many people do you know that sneak cans of pop into a movie theater because of the high prices? same thing is happining at cedar point.

Cedar point DOES have a lot to compete with. Places like zoos, smaller parks, x boxes, I pods, other parks that are you can have a great time at and not leave feeling ripped off.

Comparing to Disney economics is apples to oranges.

crazy horse said:

Disney could probaly charge $5 for a soda, but they don't. And guess what.....There guest satisfaction is very high. Maybe people won't rush off to Disney, six flags or busch, but they will stop buying sodas and food at cedar point or even stop going all together.

That's exactly what I meant yesterday, you're changing it from a 'will this' hurt them to a 'this will' hurt them. And that is rediculous. Cedar Point has been around 141 years, they made good money last year, have an EBIDTA of $300,000,000+, can we stop acting like this is the end?

I think that we have alredy proved your "They made good money last year" argument wrong.

Just because a company has been around a long time, does not mean that they are going to be around forever. I am not saying that they are going to close cedar point.....just saying. Look what happend to geauga lake.

Cedar Fair had an EBITDA of $300M, that's good money. How do you know that Cedar Point lost money last year? Have you seen their individual P/L? Can I get a copy?

The company suffers from debt. The operations (you know? selling tickets, pop, food, etc.?) of the company are well above water, that's really not debatable.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/cf?s=FUN+Cash+Flow&annual

djDaemon said:
Disney has a fairly captive audience - one that, it seems, stays on-property at a higher rate than CP's guests. If that's true (and I have no idea if it is), then Disney arguably has a MORE captive audience, yet treats them better. And guess what Disney gets in return? Lots of guests willing to open their pockets (even in a recession).

Which was exactly what I was after, and the reason that I think that...

GoBucks89 said:
Comparing to Disney economics is apples to oranges.

...is nonsense.

I make the comparison because I am a customer of both and I do perceive a completely different value proposition. I consider Orlando an enormous sinkhole for my disposable income, and yet, I feel like I'm getting what I pay for there. In no universe will I ever feel like shelling out nearly five bucks for a fountain soda is OK.

But then, soda is free for me at work. Keep buying those computers and Xbox's, please. :)

That doesn't mean it's not working though. Based on the most important operational indicator, Cedar Fair is doing just fine.

Cedar Fair EBITDA - 33.6%
Disney EBITDA - 20.3%

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=DIS

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=FUN

Most of the time I go to Disney, I have the meal plan so I don't really ever have to buy a soda.

Even if I did have to buy a soda, I would still only be spending 1/2 of what cedar point is charging.

Kyle2154 said:
That doesn't mean it's not working though. Based on the most important operational indicator, Cedar Fair is doing just fine.

Cedar Fair EBITDA - 33.6%
Disney EBITDA - 20.3%

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=DIS

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=FUN

Yea....

Per cap spending is down, attendance is down, they are in big time debt, chair members are being ousted,the apollo mess, shareholders are being screwed.

Yep....sounds like they are doing great.

Meanwhile back at Disney and six flags, attendance is up, and they are making money.

crazy horse said:

Kyle2154 said:
That doesn't mean it's not working though. Based on the most important operational indicator, Cedar Fair is doing just fine.

Cedar Fair EBITDA - 33.6%
Disney EBITDA - 20.3%

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=DIS

http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/jsp/finance/compinfo/IncomeStatement.jsp?tkr=FUN

Yea....

Per cap spending is down, attendance is down, they are in big time debt, chair members are being ousted,the apollo mess, shareholders are being screwed.

Yep....sounds like they are doing great.

Meanwhile back at Disney and six flags, attendance is up, and they are making money.

Yeah, Cedar Fair really got slammed, EBITDA went from a spectacular 36% to an amazing 33%...

It's saying Jordan's 360 dunk was weak compared to that foul line dunk.

Dick has been an A- or an A operationally, buying paramount, building too many rides, or whatever ran up all this debt puts him at about a D- from a financing standpoint, but we are discussing operations here (pop prices), and how terrible they are, how much "they're not listening", going out of business, etc....when all indicators would seem to point to them doing just fine operationally, yet again...

Per cap spending is down...that has a lot to do with operations.

Again, it's not as amazing as it once was, and? It's not like it's bad, the cash generated from operations which takes EVERYTHING into consideration is so high, their EBITDA, compared to Disney is so high.

Look at every operational statistic, cash flow, per cap, ebitda, whatever, damn man, what do you want?

I want you to stop being such a fanboy and trying to say that they can do no wrong. Fact is, they are not doing "just fine". You keep defending the current drink and food prices, when most people will disagree with you.

The bump in money last year was from the land sale in canada. If it was not for that, they would not have looked so good.

The point of this thread is to discuss the shamefull pricess of the beverages....not a debate about debt and share prices.

Even the kids with mom and dads money are starting to notice the prices. Last weekend I saw a bunch of them leave the subway line after seeing that a sub is gonna cost them the price of an xbox game.