$3 soda = criminal

Well, crazyhorse, I guess if Cedar Point charged $79 for a 1 day ticket, they would be able to just about give drinks away.

On second thought, I am never going anywhere that charges prices like they do at Cedar Point. So that means no more concerts or sporting events or movies or plays or zoos or museums or anywhere else entertaining. I guess I'll go to Meijers and get my $.25 pop and sit on the couch.

CougarFan said:

Big Bang Theory is Crap.

Carbon Dating is Crap.

I know I will catch hell for this(at least I think I will) but for any of you Big Bang Theory peeps I can explain that it is total BULL.

By all means, I would LOVE to hear your undoubtedly brilliant analysis on the topic. Hell, just to keep this thread on-point, just PM me, and I'll give you my email address, phone number or even my home address.

I want to hear you explain it that bad.

Don't you just hate science? Way too much logic there for me. *sarcasm*

CougarFan said:

Everything you hear about "Evolution" happened billions of years ago.

Except for that part where homo sapiens evolved from homo erectus about 150-200k years ago.

quit buying into evolution.

I know this is random, and I also know that natural selection is real

Ok, so you reject evolution, but you know evolution is real. Nope, you're not contradicting yourself.

Pete -- I hope that you are right but I am not very optimistic. The region at this point has a cost structure that just isn't conducive to attracting new business. And I have all the confidence in the world that state/local governments will continue to screw it all up. Water helps. But pipelines are pretty easy to build. :)

Actually, I'd think the cost structure is very conducive to new business. Anecdotally/out-of-my-ass speaking, you've got 2 metric crap loads of skilled labor sitting at home burning through their buyout funds. And then you've got about 1.25 metric crap loads of skilled, experienced engineers looking for work.

Finally, when speaking with regard to actual data, it seems that Michigan is actually pretty appealing to businesses, as compared to other states in our region.

What are you basing your analysis on, GoBucks?

High taxes (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/) . Link is from 2005 but our taxes haven't gone down. High deficits (http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/09/michigan_lawmakers_work_on_bud.html) which will likely lead to higher taxes/decreased services. You also have an aging infrastructure in Ohio/Michigan relative to other parts of the country (especially the west and south). And wage expectations are higher here mainly because of union wage expectations. Foreign automakers may have built plants up here had there been no unions.

And thanks for the link. A couple of points. Michigan moved up 4 places in that study more because of disincentives of other states than anything Michigan did. So I guess the strategy is just hope other states keep screwing things up. And from that same survey, Ohio was ranked 47th.

GoBucks89 said:
High taxes (http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/taxesbystate2005/) . Link is from 2005 but our taxes haven't gone down.

Or they did, whichever is factually correct.

2005 - Tax rate = 9.7% (US avg = 9.8%); Rank = 24
2006 - Tax rate = 9.6% (US avg = 9.9%); Rank = 27
2007 - Tax rate = 9.5% (US avg = 9.9%); Rank = 28
2008 - Tax rate = 9.4% (US avg = 9.7%); Rank = 27

What's also interesting is that Michigan's per-capita income has increased over those 4 years, from $35,860 to $39,273. That's ahead of inflation, though I expect those numbers have as much to with the regional exodus as they do anything else.

...wage expectations are higher here mainly because of union wage expectations.

I doubt that. Given the collapse of the UAW pay scale, I can't see how this is accurate. No one joining the UAW has expectations that its still 1995.

Michigan moved up 4 places in that study more because of disincentives of other states than anything Michigan did. So I guess the strategy is just hope other states keep screwing things up.

First - link (with regard to disincentives claim)?

And secondly - so what? Isn't that what they're supposed to do? Be attractive relative to the alternatives? It would be fiscally irresponsible to do otherwise, no?

"Foreign automakers may have built plants up here had there been no unions."

UAW density has absolutely no bearing on where foreign automakers build their assembly plants.

That's not true, Coastern3rd. Toyota has chosen quite carefully where to build their plants, so as to avoid UAW trouble. Places, like Kentucky, where good-paying jobs are so attractive that no one cares about joining a union. Plus, Toyota pays close to UAW wage (including benefits), so that joining the UAW would likely reduce their take-home pay.

Thats all hearsay and pundit talk.

NUMMI employees were union and Honda has two plants in Ohio in very dense UAW populated areas including one in Alliston, Ontario a very harsh CAW town.

Also don't forget Toyota's "truck" plants in Texas and their SUV plant in Indiana.

Ohhh kay... The mere existence of a few plants in UAW-dense places means that said density "has absolutely no bearing" on the placement of foreign manufacturers' plants?

That's... an interesting theory.

You want me to provide a link to a point that was in an article that you linked to?

"Michigan moved up four places to 17th in 2009, an improvement study author Kail Padgitt attributed less to changes in Michigan than in new disincentives enacted by other states."

Sorry, I missed that. Its just tiring trying to figure out what of your posts is fact, and what you're just making up as you go along. :)

"Well, crazyhorse, I guess if Cedar Point charged $79 for a 1 day ticket, they would be able to just about give drinks away."

Who would pay that much to get into a park for a day?

I only pay $33.43 a day whan I go to Disney. Look below. I even get free drinks and food when they are doing the free dinning plan.

http://tickets.disney.go.com/buy/TicketTrans?storeID=DRD&tktFitterDefaultQty=ADULT=1|CHILD=0|ALL=1&lengthOfStay=7&tokens=Yw93co0Z%2Fz7q35UL8ALOvbmeSni0p6yl8eKsK8zePjqL%2FHxjyGl7wvYXbQkKlm5Est7ndyzcAbAuchhjJogRzgHO3IX3qmXy97Fb%2BbENCrPG69wDATJZgsk%2FxoYKeFQfhMl4XhtHMZXSUJWUB7tbYvHB%2B1zz3s7h65xXOBpAc%2B%2FVRnmlv67B1Q0dzEGcIU%2B9RB0er2NW8cEgONaRcF4sFul2LSQCxyY4%2Bc7EYtIUIMIUHf2%2FrJG7Ben1bntlIepbkfskFxMYqMSXChYyLSmzOfrR%2BG6rif71aGMICjCIB1QSAZWgLVkZtNHvVPK1HzsDhTCoZ9clCgKyzZ7sNp1nafZbFcHqgNk9EUkHMCoYxkbVPOBbSogXMD7QwnKT18c7QW2%2BhlcBOJotqafez%2BhFJDtFYf3j12iqkl4jWdyT%2BJdub2jynliPDsA1rq%2BQY45S0IvO6CLBoTLidl58CmdG8xmEgnQIZBtFh56DAeQd6fW26rUWMcXPd1AIjXw2zOviSRAkPCGPu5taeP7tPsyzzO1459cPiGr7ih9tNFBqgHELaoVmtD8Dz49wudtXz0nCUWC%2BjD5LEQhPpJZH3jFE%2FOnsgapaQvaVwL0SiIFsJW7N4IdooyDjrJkLz4dY1JW2LB32CBAUmtxjD6YLmWyV5iMaOVV%2BkFRtgY1MJcRPyjZJivGJAhc2%2BLugStBMnF7f2qDx7F3%2B79gO6wwpIqW8a350V28Z%2B3QykVULKfwmNQs%3D&drnid=4275621

(wow. Long link)

Thats not a theory. Prior to being moved over to the Volt team, I was in Manufacturing Intelligence for all of Powertrain. The basis for plant placement is usually tax breaks and if you look at a list of foreign automakers plants you will find more than a "few" in areas populated by UAW workforces.

You mentioned Kentucky while forgetting that GM has one of the largest UAW controlled plants near the Toyota plant. They assemble the Corvette there. Perhaps you have heard of it.

One of the biggest factors in determining plant location will be costs. Tax incentives help. But labor costs are also significant.

And are the Ohio Honda plants in UAW territory?

OK, so UAW presence has "absolutely no bearing" on such decisions, but tax breaks do. Because that makes sense?

And yeah, I'm quite familiar with the Vette plant, having been to it. And since when is a plant with 900 employees considered "one of the largest"? Most of GM's plants have in excess of 1,500 employees, with many employing upwards of 2,000 people.

Yes, gobucks. If you consider that GM has plants located in Defiance, Morain, Sandusky (delco), Columbus, and Lords town just to name a few I would say that its pretty much UAW happy town there.