Wisconsin clashes with the point

I wouldn't compare the interest in Cedar Point wedding to the interest in Disney weddings but there are plenty of people each year that have unauthorized weddings at Cedar Point.

I don't think it is about there NOT being a market. I think Cedar Point doesn't want to go to the trouble but in my opinion it is an untapped source of revenue.

I think most business conventions would be a lot more interested in a golf course than an indoor water park. NOW if you are going to target youth conventions, be it schools, organizations, churches, etc, you may hit a gold mine.

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ONE freeway stamp a day... ONE

Could you imagen if somebody kicked off their marrage on TTD, and it rolled back? Yikes. haha

Does a CP resort/indoor waterpark combo have potential? Sure! But at what expense?

I can't remember where, but I've read articles where numbers for a waterpark/hotel were bandied about and for some reason $25 million comes to mind. If I can find the article, I'll link you. Edit: Got one

Now think about it realistically: If CP can build another MF or Dragster for the price of a Great Bear Lodge, which would you prefer them to build? Better yet, why would they smack over buildings with perfectly profitable, money-making rooms to do it? Let the Great Bear folks do what they do while CP does what it does. More power to both of 'em.

-'Playa

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 5/8/2003 11:47:07 AM ***

If they did do marriages at the point and set something up to allow it much more frequently, you can always have Snoopy present at the wedding and available for pictures. Hey, if everyone wants to have their picture taken with Mickey Mouse, then why not Snoopy? Plus, you could charge some guests extra to have their picture taken with Snoopy because many younger kids would like that. You just won't have to tell them that they can get it done for free when you find Snoopy walking around the park. If you're really in a bind, have Snoopy be your best man. He'll probably work for cheap and will more than likely be to the wedding on time. Just some interesting thoughts.

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and remember, if you can't be an athlete, be an athletic supporter

One advantage of an indoor waterpark/resort over a roller coaster is year-round income.

The following was taken from a 2002 article in the Sandusky Register:

Cedar Point is also trying to find a way to bring in year-round revenue. Kinzel said one of the goals of the park is to extend the season as much as possible and eventually become a year-round family resort. While no specifics have been determined on how this would be done, Kinzel said it is possible for Cedar Point to offer a destination in the future similar to Great Bear Lodge in Perkins Township.

John Hildebrandt, vice president of marketing at Cedar Point, said the park will continue to find creative ways to extend the season. In Hildebrant's first year, 1974, the park was open from just before Memorial Day to just after Labor Day. In 2002, the park season will be May 5-Oct. 27.

"There is an interest from the marketplace and from within Cedar Point to extend the season. We will have to be creative and efficient, but I think we'll be successful in finding ways," Hildebrandt said.

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Virtual Midway
http://www.virtualmidway.com

(cough) Casino (cough)

Playa,

$25 million for the ability to generate year round income is a small price to pay. Geez, they paid $25 million on a ride that has a far smaller ROI than a hotel does.

As for knocking down Sandcastle, the same applies. That hotel couldn't be open year-round. It wasn't built to house guests during the winter. That have made a fortune off of Sandcastle but it's life expectancy is far shorter than the Breakers expansions will be. The powers that be weren't totally commited to Sandcastle so it was built on the cheap and the second phase was only greenlighted after the first did so well.

Leveling Sandcastle to make room for year round revenue would be a small price to pay.

Smaller ROI or an ROI that's more difficult to estimate?

The attention from Dragster has peaked unit prices in the middle of a recession, drawn national attention and will drag butts into the gates and existing hotels for years because nothing's likely to top it until the economy heats up.

That's something just another hotel with an indoor waterpark just can't do...year 'round availability or not.

An economy hotel with a smaller indoor park? Maybe. A huge waterpark expansion to Radisson? More probably. A $25 million standalone luxury resort replacing existing properties? Don't hold your breath. Okay, perhaps it would end this discussion sooner--but don't.

-'Playa

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.

Dick Kinzel himself has stated more times than I can count that the future growth at the Point will rely on the Resort end of things. He puts his money where his mouth is.

Two expansions to Hotel Breakers. Buying Radisson. Breakers Express. Lighthouse Point. Next year's anticipated expansion of Lighthouse Point. I know for certain that the Bon Aire section of Breakers is on life support right now.

As much money as Sandcastle has made for the company it is only 187 suites while Breakers has over 600 rooms. The tip of the Peninsula might be the most valuable land there (with the exception of Dick's property).

I am not saying it is going to happen tomorrow but it is the next logical step. Sandcastle has had some significant structural problems as a result of the way it was built. Interior walls have been replaced/repaired numerous times. When a kid runs down the hall you can here it two floors down.

Adding a waterpark to Radisson is a nice idea but where would they do that? They own a little land across Rt. 6 but I am not sure how much they could do with that.

As for ROI on a coaster I will admit it is harder to measure. But, as for drawing butts into the park it is my understanding that there hasn't been a better year in terms of attendance than '94 when Raptor was built. Mantis didn't do better and even Millennium Force didn't do better. Even Jeff has stated that the attendance has probably plateaued. There are only so many people you can get in the park in 126 days.

However, you can sell more room nights if you have more rooms. And if those rooms are available year round you can sell even more nights. Great Bear Lodge is a hit and others are trying to move in. Why would Cedar Point not jump on board?

Uhhhhh...cuz they've never spent more than $13 million (half the cost of a Great Bear type-resort) in a single off-season on resorts? And because that happened during an economic boom, not a recession? To say nothing of the fact CF is a fiscally conservative chain.

I can't even believe I had to answer that question. It's like pointing at the nose on my face if you ask me.

-CO
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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.

Maybe things are changing, CO...

MrScott

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"If we go any faster, she'll blow apart for sure!"

Well, I don't know about your nose Playa. Cedar Point never spent $25 million on a single attraction before but that didn't stop them from building TTD during a recession.

And, let's remember this: The company is growing. When Breakers East was built they didn't own Michigan's Adventure or Knott's. More revenue is coming in.

Let's look at a scenario. Say the Point builds a 300 room resort to replace Sandcastle. If they charged $200.00 a night (a conservative figure) they would make about $6,000,000 gross during the normal summer season. Taking into account occupancy levels and other factors too lengthy to explain I figure the hotel could make about another $3,600,000 on weekends during the off-season and maybe another $1,000,000 if they chose to operate during the week as well.

So we are looking at a gross of about $11,400,000 for one year of operation. Obviously, we aren't looking at expenses such as staffing, maintenance, utilities, etc but we are also not factoring in f&b sales.

Now, over the course of the first five years that $25 million construction figure doesn't look too daunting, does it?

Oh really? Is that so? What if I told you $25 million was the LOW END for a resort/indoor waterpark complex? What would you say then?

What if the cost could be more than MF and Dragster combined?

Well, read 'em and weep. Not $25 million--not $50 million--$60 million.

I told ya then and I'm telling you again....not.....gonna....happen. Maybe a smaller scale project, maybe attached to the Radisson (with its national reservation system) or with a casino--but otherwise, get real. CF remains profitable because they don't go out on limbs.

-Captain Oh-so-very-painfully-OBVIOUS

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The CPlaya 100--6 days, 9 parks, 47 coasters, 2037 miles and a winner.....LoCoSuMo.
*** This post was edited by CoastaPlaya 5/8/2003 4:43:32 PM ***

Well Playa,

I didn't know you worked for Cedar Point resorts. I defer to your experience.

But, a 6-10 year ROI on a $60 million dollar complex wouldn't be too shabby.

Don't ya love it when they crumble?

I think the real question that needs to be asked is who in their right mind would want to take an Indoor vacation in Sandusky OH , in the middle of the winter. If I had a family I think that's about the last place in the world I'd want to go for vacation. Winter is just not the time to be at Cedar Point, it never has been and never will be. In the dead of winter no one wants to be near the great lakes, they want to go to Florida, where it's warm. Exactly what kind of clientel do you think this type of attraction would bring. I personally feel that if the money was invested the idea would flop bigger than DT. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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Joe Cool's Merch 2002
Macaroni's 2003

Great Bear Lodge is filled up year 'round. Someone I know, who hates winter, went to Great Bear Lodge to escape winter. The indoor water park and the general atmosphere of the hotel is a big draw. Obviously, there is a year round market in Sandusky for those types of attractions. If not, why would another hotel like Great Bear be on the drawing board?

Cedar Point could do well extending the season with a indoor water park hotel. The holiday season, with some special activities, would be a natural. So would things like mystery weekends, weddings, meetings, etc.

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Florida may have Disneyworld and Key West,
but Ohio has Cedar Point and Put-In-Bay.
It's great to live in Ohio!

Harliquin,

That is the whole reason this topic came up. GBL did so well that others are looking to copy their idea. Who in the Northern Ohio area would be a better hotel/water park operator than Cedar Point? They operate hotels and they operate water parks.

I think people in Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, etc are eager for some winter vacation ideas that would get them out of the cold without having to pay a fortune to fly down south.

Playa, I didn't crumble. I could go into a much longer debate but I prefer to protect my identity as well as my friends'.

Hey, everyone is right when they mention that people look for different vacation options during the winter. Hey, I live in lovely Emmet County, MI (Petoskey) where the fun of winter is like a one-armed bandit on crack, you never know when it's starting or ending.

As for our GBL, I love it! I've been twice to the Traverse City local with two friends during the winter since it opened up back in March. Seriously, nothing beats a heated waterslide in the smack dab of winter. And it's a WHOLE lot better than driving across the bridge to Iggy just to buy snacks at the Iggy Glens...

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2003 - Gemini Crew