Why did the remove Chik-Fil-A?

On the contrary, I would imagine sports cars will make up a growing percentage of manually-driven cars remaining on the road as autonomous vehicles become more common. A person who drives an "appliance" car like a Camry is far less likely to be a driving enthusiast than someone who drives a Challenger SRT. As such, that Camry driver will be more likely to go autonomous.

djDaemon said:

As such, that Camry driver will be more likely to go autonomous.

That Camry driver needs to go in the trash, being honest. ;)

Regarding at fault for accidents, it really hasn't been addressed, but I still think fault is given to the operator, as you're the last line of defense relating to it, unless it's fully automated (like a subway line for example)

"Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn't stop to think if they should."

I hate that everything is becoming automated. Yes, this has been happening since long before I or even my parents were alive, so it's not a new concern, I'm sure. My concern is for jobs. Real, work with your hands, jobs. And in this case, truck drivers, bus drivers, taxis, etc.

If anyone saw Logan this past March (and if you haven't, please do. It's the best film of the year so far, imo), you saw that there was a scene including automated semi-trucks. With the way things are going, I'm guessing this will happen within 10-15 years and we'll have a very large industry that no longer needs workers.

I'm not saying that there should never be improvement in technology to make things safer, more affordable, etc. but we have to also remember that with every autonomous vehicle, there is a real possibility that real people will lose jobs and we'll become more and more reliant on service industry and tech jobs, than actual, physical labor.

Does this mean that we need to invest in education that moves more toward tech and engineering? Sure. But these jobs (driving trucks, buses,etc) are for those people where money for education isn't even necessarily a major factor. Where circumstances, decision-making, and genetics all play a part to determine if someone would be able to obtain the education necessary to be able to perform at those jobs.

I'm not saying that it isn't great technology that we've been building toward for a very long time. But, there are costs that I don't believe have been fully considered, and that doesn't always work well.

Jobs phase out all the time, it's history, and it's technology.

At one point a milkman was a respectable job, as well as ice delivery companies, telegram deliveries, and even modern examples like retail--malls & shopping centers are dead or dying.

Adapt and overcome, or get swallowed by the forward motion of technology. I'm really not against certain subsets losing their jobs because a more beneficial, safer, or alternative approach to that task is created / becomes more popular. If semis go autonomous for safety, quicker deliveries, and better reliability, I'm all for it. Those with that occupation can find other work. Hell even in the same trade (even if they are autonomous, it requires skilled labor to repair/replace parts, maintain, or even potentially some operations).

I'm not for lingering on old jobs that can be phased out or replaced with higher skilled, better paying jobs.

djDaemon said:

Indeed, the technical issues are completely trivial. It's liability where things will get interesting.

thedevariouseffect said:

My only thing with autonomy, is I'm hesitant because I still want to drive.

...

I hope this doesn't remove this freedom in 10-15 years or so, but is a mutual relationship. I know if anything me being that driver that's not letting the computer do it's thing is if anything the larger hazard then, but I have fun.

Just like you can still go ride horses, I'm sure there will be places you can drive a car manually if that's your thing.

Perhaps you and Pete can open up The Luddite Car Ranch out in Montana or something. ;-)

But if it's only on some ranch somewhere it defeats the point because I'll be able to what drive in a big circle on a ranch? I want actual road...

Maybe you can find a big car ranch with figure eights and stuff.

But seriously - your desire to drive does not outweigh public safety. So, sorry about that I guess.

Jeff said:

I've let my car drive me at 75 mph. The future is already here.

I thought this ties back to the liability. I do not know anything about autonomous vehicles - who sets the speed that you drive at? Does the car simply go with the flow of traffic? Does the driver set it?

This thread is a trip. From chicken sandwiches to social justice to automation to a small attempt to get back on topic to automation again. I love this forum. X3

10 internet points to anyone that can steer this thread towards climate change and 15 to Amazon's purchase of Whole Paycheck.

The Skill of driving takes years to master, are the next generations even going to be able to drive effectivly?

We run into issues like this all the time in Scouts. Why do you need to know how to use a map and compass when the smart phone can do it all so much better. Why know how to tie a taught line hitch or a bowline when you never need to use one with modern camping gear? There was a time when being able to wrangle a horse was a requirement for 1st class rank and that eventually faded away.

Who knows, go cart tracks could make a comeback at amusement parks.

I don't want Go Kart tracks at amusement parks. 10-15mph Karts don't cut it. 45+ Karts are where it's at. A place down here in Cincy has 45mph Karts w/ full helmets required, it's an absolute blast.

I agree with you there Daemon, public safety is important. As long as I have some way to enjoy driving, I'll take it. Maybe dedicated roads allow it, certain sections, whatever. I'm totally fine with that, just don't remove driving all together. It's not a task or job to me, it's entertainment. Going through a 6 speed, hearing downshifts, throttle blips, heel-toeing, all that. It's just a fun way to get from point A-B. I don't want to lose it completely.

Kind of like horses I guess. Before those were common transportation, now it's moreover a hobby, and I'm fine with that.

Just don't make me call my car something ridiculous and wear THOSE clothes :P

The autonomous Camry drivers will feel smug as the help prevent climate change, while using Amazon Prime to purchase overpriced organic soda, Non GMO sushi, and free range tomatoes from Whole Paycheck.

Paisley said:

But if it's only on some ranch somewhere it defeats the point because I'll be able to what drive in a big circle on a ranch? I want actual road...

Oh no, no, no. The Luddite Car Ranch would be a ranch in name only. Think full blown sports car course with straights and left and right turns of various radius. Timed runs. Losers by the winner drinks at the end of the day.

Reminds me of a event just about 15 or so years ago that I attended. Would be very sad if autonomous vehicles ruined events like this. It was all about driving enjoyment. Called the "Mercedes Benz White Knuckle Weekend". They invited a small group of people, maybe about 30 people, to the Sea World parking lot in Aurora. They had a variety of Mercedes Benz vehicles to drive around 4 different tracks (autocross courses) they had set up on the parking lot. And by drive, I mean that you were encouraged to drive the cars as fast as you can. Drift around corners? No problem. Full acceleration and deceleration? Please enjoy. This was about a six hour event that had a timed autocross competition at the end. I finished second overall, my buddy finished last. He owed me a number of beers for that! Just an awesome event that was so much fun it should be illegal. I can see how a world of autonomous appliances would put an end to events like that and that is a shame!

Why would such events end? You can find horse racing and riding events all over the place even today, more than a hundred years after vehicle mass production began.

Sparty42 said:

I'm guessing this will happen within 10-15 years and we'll have a very large industry that no longer needs workers... there is a real possibility that real people will lose jobs and we'll become more and more reliant on service industry and tech jobs, than actual, physical labor.

It's going to come along in five years or less, and yes, people are going to be out of work. I've been saying this for years.

American culture has been hell bent on preserving work that is obsolete, and it's one of the many reasons we get our asses handed to us by global competitors. Meanwhile, we don't do anything to go where the opportunity is. The construction trades are alive and well and in high demand where I live. Hook up with a solar installer, and you'll work for decades. Above all... learn to write software. Most of the people who do it today suck at it, and there still aren't enough people to fill the available positions. If you want to be making six figures in a short time, do it. It's more of a blue collar profession than we're willing to admit, and all it takes is a computer and some books to start learning.

Cargo Shorts said:

10 internet points to anyone that can steer this thread towards climate change and 15 to Amazon's purchase of Whole Paycheck.

Challenge accepted!

Amazon has been moving things around in its warehouses with robots for years, and its ambition for autonomous drone delivery is no secret. Its entire business model is hinged on the getting you stuff as efficiently as possible, while holding it for the shortest possible time, and the Whole Foods purchase is buying them a supply chain in one swift transaction that helps them in a market they haven't cracked. (Of course, one opinion piece I read says they're trying to become Walmart before Walmart becomes Amazon, which is probably also true.)

Meanwhile, one could argue that vehicle autonomy goes hand-in-hand with the electrification of the world's vehicle fleet, which naturally is going to be better for the planet. Going electric in turn goes with using renewables, which are largely a solved problem that just needs investment.

Proud to be part of the future.

Our economy can still be based on making things, but we need to focus on the things the world wants and needs instead of trying to protect everything it doesn't.

70D....

That made me sad, no Ludicrous mode you =/

All joking aside, congrats on the purchase. Hoping you enjoy the Tesla. I've been looking at them for awhile thinking about it. I won't probably swing myself towards one just yet due to the initial costs, but within the next 5-10 it's a for sure. Right now I just want to enjoy what I have now and with the payment plan finishing by October, live without car payments for quite a bit to save up & pay off other expenses.

However I'm ridiculously envious of every Tesla. They made an electric car be great, not a Prius level tampon on wheels (which no offense, I could never do a leaf, even with how cheap & effective they are). But they're great cars, and great fun.

djDaemon said:

Why would such events end? You can find horse racing and riding events all over the place even today, more than a hundred years after vehicle mass production began.

Because the entire event was about showing off the driving characteristics of Mercedes Benz vehicles to people who enjoy driving, it was a marketing event to sell vehicles. You can't market driving enjoyment when vehicles are driven by a computer.

thedevariouseffect said:

All joking aside, congrats on the purchase. Hoping you enjoy the Tesla. I've been looking at them for awhile thinking about it. I won't probably swing myself towards one just yet due to the initial costs, but within the next 5-10 it's a for sure.

For me it all depends on the cost of driving it and if they can get the range up to a level that is practical for me. The 200 mile range of cars like a Tesla 3 won't cut it for me and the cost of a Tesla S, which may range up to 300 miles, is too costly to make it practical. A 300 mile range would be ok for me (barely), but anything less would not cut it. VW is coming out with a range of electric vehicles which promise have a 300 mile range and start at around 35K to purchase, which would lower the cost of ownership compared to the diesel powered vehicle I have now. Over the 300,000 miles use, I typically keep a car until it has 300,000 miles, the cost would be as follows:

Tesla S - Purchase price + "fuel": $76,000
Current Diesel vehicle + fuel: $50,675
Future VW + "fuel": $41,000

Of course, it all depends on future cost of electricity and diesel or gasoline and if the cost of each 6 or so years down the road can be predicted accurately enough.

The math doesn't work for cost today unless you're getting a Chevy Bolt or the forthcoming v2 Nissan Leaf. And statistically, most people don't need more than 200 miles, and when they do, it's 1% or less of their driving. My Model S "only" goes 240 miles on a full charge, and I've driven almost down to Miami and as far north as Asheville, NC. The range is a non-issue.

djDaemon said:

Maybe you can find a big car ranch with figure eights and stuff.

But seriously - your desire to drive does not outweigh public safety. So, sorry about that I guess.

I happen to have a perfect driving record...let all the people who can't be bothered to learn to drive well or read a map or put their damn phone down have their self driving cars in the cities I want open country roads away from everyone anyway. I should not be deprived of my enjoyment of cars just because others can't be trusted with them.

Yeah, I may be sounding a bit harsh here, but those that die in distracted driving accidents, assuming the driver of that vehicle is the one distracted, all get Darwin awards.