Which park(s) would you like to see join the Cedar Fair family?

You're confusing enthusiast sentiment with normal business practice.

SteveH said:
Today it sits abandoned, and has no real future. If the land was at least repurposed ... it would ease a lot of the bad mojo associated with the whole closing.

Repurpose the land? The housing market tanked right around this time. Cedar Fair is not just going to give the land away to anyone just offering money. If they found a buyer that offered the right price, I'm sure they would have taken it.

I think there has been consideration to put a shopping center on the former GL land. I think there has also been talks of just selling the land in parcels.

I had read about that. I had also come across recently an old article that Geauga Lake had come close to being purchased by a couple of local ACE enthusiasts and a developer.

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/09/geauga_lakes_bi...under.html

Don't know if that offer is still on the table or the Big Dipper's status except that it is still SBNO.

Since another park being added to the chain is the topic I'll start there. Cedar Fair is in no shape to buy property now. They just restructured all there debt. I think they went all in when they bought the Paramount Parks. These parks are money makers and they have invested heavily into them. But they didn't have the money to buy them, instead they aquired alot of debt. Shortly after the banking system went through alot of changes. The system failed. Parks like Six Flags were bankrupt. Selling.

Shame on Six Flags for buying Sea World/Geauga Lake to begin with. If they would have maintained what they bought it would still be here today. It wasn't a regional amusement park it was a zoo/waterpark. They put a bunch of rides there to compete in a teritory they couldn't compete in. Even people that lived near Cleveland went to CP instead. Would you build an amusement park this close to CP? Six Flags restructured their business and figured out what not to do so they could make money again.

Cedar Fair is actually selling off some properties to give themselves some leverage with the bank. I don't think they are doing it to buy more properties though. I'd say they are doing it to please their stockholders. Lowering long term interest and providing a nice dividend for the people who've invested in their business.

noggin said:
Cedar Fair put a lot of time and money into Geauga Lake.

When? I worked there and out of the 3 years they owned them, I only remember one major capital expenditure. This of course being the new-smaller waterpark that replaced the one they already had. It was $25 million, I believe. Most of Cedar Fair's money was spent on ride removal and adding trash cans to the park.

noggin said:
Unfortunately, Six Flags had made such a mess of the place -- overbuilding, constant name changes and so on --it was simply too much to overcome.

If Cedar Fair had simply renamed the park back to Geauga Lake and did nothing else, their attendance would've remained at 2 million visitors a year. Instead, they closed the SeaWorld side, closed part of the waterpark and removed a few of the coasters. This is why their attendance nose dived to 700,000 a year. I understand that they wanted to downsize but instead of putting up fences to block off half the park (where people could easily see from the street a disgusting mess of neglect with rotting buildings visible and overgrown foliage, to which I wouldn't be surprised if many people thought they were closed), they should've instead looked for someone to buy the SeaWorld side and have them operate it as a marine park. This would've instantly cut the park in half and kept the synergy going between the two parks. Building a new waterpark was definitely NOT the answer, as the park was still double the size it needed to be with half the attractions that it needed to have.

noggin said:
Why do blame Cedar Fair for what Six Flags did to Geauga Lake?

Because Six Flags didn't demolish the park, simple as that. Six Flags cared enough to atleast sell the park to another amusement park operator. Cedar Fair didn't even try and opted to just bulldoze over 100 years of history

SeaWorld brought in the crowds to Geauga Lake. However, the animals were not part of the $145 million deal with Six Flags and CF. Cedar Fair wanted to revert the park back to the pre-Six Flags mess. However, the park was much to big for a park only attracting 2.1 million guests let alone 700'000. Even if the animals were part of the deal, Cedar Fair [and arguably Six Flags] doesn't have the expertise and resources to run a Marine Park. Six Flags was desperate to get rid of the park. If Cedar Fair wouldn't have bought it [nobody else was interested in the mess], Six Flags would have probably would not be around anymore.

SteveH said:
...it would ease a lot of the bad mojo associated with the whole closing.

CF has an obligation to its shareholders to make profit, not be your therapist.

If I had a therapist, it wouldn't be CF, because they would suggest a lobotomy --- to forget their past.

CF does have an obligation to uphold it's image to the public - which is ultimately the way they return value to their shareholders.

No, the way they return value to their shareholders is through being a profitable company. It's true their public image plays a role in that, albeit relatively minuscule.

Just because a tiny vocal minority is upset over something that happened several years ago doesn't mean their public image is tarnished in any way, as evidenced by record results in recent years.

Skippy, Thank you!!!!

I literally thought I was the only one who thought that about SF and CF ownership of Geauga Lake.

Noggin, I don't know how your memory serves, but IIRC, CF made just as many name changes to the park as SF did.

SF: From Geauga Lake - Six Flags Ohio - Six Flags Worlds of Adventure

CF: From Six Flags Worlds of Adventure - Geauga Lake - Geauga Lake and Wildwater Kingdom.

My favorite time to go there was when Six Flags owned it. There was so much to see and do at that time. I don't understand how everybody can say SF ruined that park. All of our favorite rides were built through SF. Batman (Dominator), Superman (Steel Venom), X-Flight, Villain. The DUMBEST thing SF did, was add 4 major coasters in 1 off season. Also, removing THE WAVE from the Boardwalk shores waterpark to make way for Looney Tunes Boomtown was a bit of a drag.

The funny thing is, I absolutely despise SF parks now because of their constant thought of competition with CF.

Huh. I only count one name change by Cedar Fair. From Six Flags Worlds of Adventure to Geauga Lake. Adding "Wildwater Kingdom" didn't change the name of the park.

You go from wondering why everyone says SF ruined the park to extolling the very actions SF took to ruin the park. By so aggressively expanding the park, including adding those four coasters in one season, they created a park that was too big for its market.

When SF owned it, all they did was add "Worlds of Adventure" after the first year. So I'm failing to see your point.

They did make a big mistake adding 4 coasters in a year. SF clearly just wasn't good with finances at that time, considering all the properties they ended up selling a few years later. But that doesn't mean when the park was Six Flags, it didn't have better attendance than the Cedar Fair era. Figures don't lie.

It's a simple point, really. They didn't change the name of the park; it was Geauga Lake. It remained Geauga Lake. How is that hard to understand?

Six Flags created the problems that Cedar Fair tried to fix. To suggest that Six Flags bore no blame whatsover in the eventual closing of Geauga Lake is just not correct.

^^They added another coaster the next year, so that is FIVE in two years.

You're right, they weren't good with finances at that point. And guess who inherited all the financial issues the park was dealing with? Attendance dropped year after year that Six Flags owned it (you said the stats don't lie), and the financial issues just kept adding up. That's part of the reason Six Flags wanted out. Cedar Fair bought the park with good intentions believing they could save it and fight through the financial issues, but Six Flags had just done too much damage.

Skippy said:
I worked there and out of the 3 years they owned them, I only remember one major capital expenditure...

If Cedar Fair had simply renamed the park back to Geauga Lake and did nothing else, their attendance would've remained at 2 million visitors a year.

Six Flags cared enough to at least sell the park to another amusement park operator.

Oh. Well. If you only remember one major capital expenditure, then there could only have been one major capital expenditure. Minor capital expenditures, investments in infrastructure...I guess they just don't count.

That Geauga's attendance would have remained at 2 million annually had Cedar Fair only changed the name is supposition. Not fact. And even if it had remained at 2 million annually...Six Flags overbuilt the park. It was too big for the market. If you have a park that needs to attract x million per year to make a profit and it only attracts y million each year, you have a park that can't succeed.

Six Flags didn't care "enough" to sell the park to another amusement park operator. Six Flags cared enough to sell the land to anyone who would cough up the money.

coolkid said:
SeaWorld brought in the crowds to Geauga Lake. However, the animals were not part of the $145 million deal with Six Flags and CF. Cedar Fair wanted to revert the park back to the pre-Six Flags mess. However, the park was much to big for a park only attracting 2.1 million guests let alone 700'000. Even if the animals were part of the deal, Cedar Fair [and arguably Six Flags] doesn't have the expertise and resources to run a Marine Park.

Exactly, so why didn't they sell the SeaWorld side to another marine park operator? Pre-Six Flags didn't have the SeaWorld side and if that was their goal, then why keep it? It would've halved the park size to which a 2.1 million in attendance seems very good.

coolkid said:
Six Flags was desperate to get rid of the park. If Cedar Fair wouldn't have bought it [nobody else was interested in the mess], Six Flags would have probably would not be around anymore.

Being desperate to sell it might have something to do with their massive debt and needing cash quick. Something makes me think they would've stuck it out had they had no buyers. Maybe split the park in two to return to profitability. We'll never know but I think they had too much invested in the park to just wipe it away, both money and pride.

noggin said:
Six Flags created the problems that Cedar Fair tried to fix. To suggest that Six Flags bore no blame whatsover in the eventual closing of Geauga Lake is just not correct.

To ignore Cedar Fair's hand it Geauga Lake's downfall is absurd and fanboyism at it's worst. You've yet to acknowledge that Cedar Fair had anything to do with it and keep playing the blame game as if you're a paid marketing rep. Cedar Fair made bad calls that directly led to it's closure. The park was not DOA and was completely salvageable had the right decisions been made.

noggin said:
That Geauga's attendance would have remained at 2 million annually had Cedar Fair only changed the name is supposition. Not fact. And even if it had remained at 2 million annually...Six Flags overbuilt the park. It was too big for the market. If you have a park that needs to attract x million per year to make a profit and it only attracts y million each year, you have a park that can't succeed.

The park was very successful before they bought SeaWorld. Unfortunately, they threw the whole ecosystem off when they tried to make two parks one, where people who would normally stay in the area for two days were trying to knock it all out in one. Without the SeaWorld side, they were very profitable. 2 million is a good number when the park is only half the lake but it's a bad number when it's the whole lake, as their intake stays the same but their operational costs double. It stands to reason that selling the SeaWorld side to another operator would've been the logical first step in downsizing the park and returning it to pre-Six Flags Geauga Lake.

That said, I apologize for contributing to the derailing of this thread. Geauga Lake is admittedly a sore spot with me and i couldn't help speak my mind. Hopefully, we can move away form the topic and get this thread back on track.

^Because Six Flags took the marine animals with them. That's why they didn't sell it to anyone else. So returning the park to "pre-SeaWorld" with the marine park being under a different operator was never an option.

What? Cedar Fair could salvage a park that wasn't making money and attendance and money kept decreasing each year? Adding another ride would've just made it worse because it was already proven that it probably wouldn't increase attendance. That's what the waterpark expansion was for, they were hoping that it would help draw in more people and begin to get things on track so they could eventually begin reinvesting in the park.

The park had lost so much money since the Six Flags "lets build it and they will come" debacle. Between the park not making money and Six Flags needing money, they decided to dump the park quick. Cedar Fair offered to purchase it in November of 2003, but Six Flags declined it. Then they really quickly turned around the following year and pretty much said "we want to get rid of it and as quickly as possible". They knew what was coming and they just wanted to get out as quick as they could. They didn't want that on their shoulders. The Six Flags of that era was just....yeah.

Of course, it was Cedar Fairs idea to close it. But most of the issue was irreparable damage done by Six Flags.

At any rate. No expansion in the near future until all the debt is gone. And they are on good course to fast-track (or FastLane?) that.

noggin said:
It's a simple point, really. They didn't change the name of the park; it was Geauga Lake. It remained Geauga Lake. How is that hard to understand?

Six Flags created the problems that Cedar Fair tried to fix. To suggest that Six Flags bore no blame whatsover in the eventual closing of Geauga Lake is just not correct.

How hard is it for you to understand that it was Six Flags and remained Six Flags with an added 'Worlds of Adventure' at the end. Same as for when Cedar Fair owned it and had the name Geauga Lake and added Wildwater Kingdom at the end. So I don't know where "all of these name changes" are coming from.

What problems did CF fix that SF created if you don't mind me asking?

Debt isn't a bad thing for businesses (or for inviduals if used wisely). Leverage allows you to grow faster than you could with just your cash flow. Buying additional (and presumably profitable) parks in part with debt would make sense in many cases. Not saying I think that Cedar Fair is likely to buy anything soon (I have no idea one way or the other). But I wouldn't expect debt to be something that would block them from a deal that otherwise makes sense.