Whats with the lighting issue?

Dave, thank you so much for the info, that helps a lot. I know of a company that is putting out central AC units, that have their own little solar grid, and that might be feasible, a little easier to hook up without having to worry about the power company...but I'd probably still run it by them first, since I don't know the local code very well. The price is a little steep for the unit, but long-term, the cost-savings, (being in the South) would far outweigh the upfront cost.

Speaking of solar, you know what big company is probably making the most efficient use of solar energy right now, and doing it in such a way that when you see it, your first reaction is probably, "Now why didn't they think of that before?"?

Believe it or not, it's Wal-Mart.

Walk into one of their newest stores on almost any given afternoon and look up. Notice that they tend to leave most of their highly efficient fluorescent lights turned *off*, which makes them even more efficient, as their new stores all have great huge skylights. It's not photovoltaic, but it might as well be...they aren't generating electricity with the skylights, but they aren't consuming electricity to light the stores, either!

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

So Dave, that makes up for the destruction of small business America and inequality of worker's rights? By turning some lights off to save electricity? Not to mention the slave labor they employ abroad.

They do it because they're just trying to save money, not the world.

Because Dave was totally supporting Wal-Mart and all that they do. It's called an example. Where in the heck did you discern from his post anything that said Wal-Mart is saving the world?

People really need to start reading posts around here..

Who cares why they do it? If you don't like their business tactics, don't shop there.

As if this thread hasn't gotten too far off topic in the first eight pages...remember the original issue was why Cedar Point doesn't go around and replace the burned out lights on their rides...!

lladnaR, most Amish stores are, almost by definition, NOT "big businesses". It's not that there is anything new about using skylights for primary illumination (in fact, many shopping malls have been doing it for years), it's just that Wal-Mart seems to be approximately the first to apply the idea to "big box" stores on a large scale. And sure, Loopy, they're doing it to cut their lighting expenses. Who cares whether they are doing it because they want to cut down on their electric use or because they want to cut their expenses? Isn't it a desirable outcome either way? Because to be honest with you, in a Capitalist society, the only way you're going to get widespread adoption of so-called alternative energy is for that to be the most cost-effective means of getting the job done. Paying a premium just because it is good for the world simply doesn't work. Run a business that way, and you'll get run out of business pretty quickly by...well, by somebody like Wal-Mart.

But don't miss the most important point: What do you think of when you think of "solar energy"? Don't forget that daylight is also a form of energy! :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Well, mk522, if you'd have read the previous page or so we were discussing the reasoning behind using less energy in order to not hurt the environment. Not, who is using less energy to lighten their electric bills.

So yes, by Dave posting that Wal-Marx is using skylights and turning off fluorescent lights to save energy then I'd say he's suggesting they're doing their part to help the environment. Especially since he posted the statement in such a way that it built to a "climactic" moment where he announced this great thing that many stores do anyhow.

Now, if they built a field of windmills behind each store and became energy independent or even sent some of the energy back to the power company then I may be even the slightest bit impressed. But they don't and the other practices they do HEAVILY outweigh this minor efficiency practice they decided to employ.

And Ben, I don't shop there. But that doesn't mean my opinion on them can't also be stated. Why they do it is the meat of the discussion we're having here so by you stating, "Who cares why they do it?" just means that you had no actual input to the thread.

RideMan said:
And sure, Loopy, they're doing it to cut their lighting expenses. Who cares whether they are doing it because they want to cut down on their electric use or because they want to cut their expenses? Isn't it a desirable outcome either way?

I could have said it in that many words, but who cares why they are doing it?

On a Cedar Point lighting-related note, the two lights on Power Tower's arch that were stuck on purple started sporadically changing colors as of a week or two ago. However, all other lights on it are still white, if they are on. I suppose that can be considered a small bit of progress, but it will be hard to match how cool it looked 5-10 years ago when the whole thing changed colors in unison.

So you defeat my argument by relating to another discussion which was logically linked together? If that's not a fallacy, I don't know what is.

If you had read further, Loopy, you'll have noticed my many reasons for being energy efficent, one of which was to fight Electricities, but mostly to make my impact on the Earth smaller. It seemed to me a good time to, with a brand new house, certify it by the state for energy efficency, which I'm proud to say it is.

But what do I know, I'm just a homeowner paying bills...

Though you did mention windmills, and those are really taking off here in North Carolina...in fact we now have a local company who manufactures and installs windmills for all businesses, great and small, and even homeowners, (those with acres of land, not suburban, obviously). The landscaping company that takes care of most of the city is completely run on wind power, already the guy is saving hundreds of thousands of dollars, and we haven't gotten through the whole year yet.

loopy, do you shop at home depot? lowes?

First, I'll start by saying that you should feel privileged that I'm even responding to your question since even after editing an eight word post, you still can't use capitalization. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you attempted a use of punctuation.

Now, let's cover the reasoning behind why I don't shop at Wal-Marx for those that weren't paying attention.

#1 - Inequality of worker's rights. Discrimination of race and gender for promotions and raises.

#2 - Running and employing slave labor overseas and in turn tossing away countless manufacturing jobs here at home.

#3 - Poor quality of merchandise. This is what happens when you design and manufacture your own merchandise in sweat shops abroad. While most things you buy today are made somewhere overseas, they aren't designed and manufactured by a company with less than low standards.

#4 - Forcing local communities to give tax breaks in order for them to build in said community. If tax break isn't given they threaten to just move to the next community over that will give the tax break.

#5 - Anti-union. It's a known fact that this company is as against labor unions as any company could possibly be. Hmm, I wonder why that would be? Refer to reason #1 why I don't shop there.

So, as you can see, there are countless reasons as to why I don't shop there. Not just because they force small businesses out. That's as much the local government's fault as it is Wal-Mart's. And you don't want me to get started on local government, hell it's worse in most ways than the feds.

Walt said:
The black and white I see in this thread is that SUVs are are always bad, and no matter what you say in favor, someone will come up with a reason why you're wrong.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Every time I or someone says SUV's are bad and most people don't need them, someone has to come up with an exception. No one is denying there are exceptions.

But there's no denying that the bulk of SUV drivers are daytime commuters from the burbs into the city where the mechanical ability of the vehicle is unused and the consumption of gas is wasteful by comparison to any number of choices that do the same thing more efficiently (and I'm not even getting into public transportation or car pooling... why don't we have HOV lanes in Ohio?).

And of course this inevitably leads to the "it's my right" cop out where people believe they live in a vacuum and their own actions don't affect anyone else. Funny how our culture donates more time and money than most others and at the same time is more "what's in it for me" than most.

Jeff: Because you can't add HOV lanes without adding another lane. And the most congested piece of Interstate in Ohio* has four in each direction and no room for more.

HOV lanes are a funny thing. The conditions that allow them to exist tend to be the very same conditions that should make them ineffective as a means of combatting congestion. Go figure! Although I suppose those express lanes on IR-480 up in the general vicinity of Cleveland could be designated for HOV...

'Course down here in Columbus things are a little different. "Urban sprawl" down here means the central city itself, not a bunch of parasitic suburbs all trying to outdo each other in speeding ticket revenue and property taxes, and the result is a more compact urban area with short commutes that don't tend to overload the freeway core. People simply can't get on the freeway fast enough to jam it up too badly. I don't think that was really the intention, but it works out that way anyway.

Loopy: We could argue all day about whether Wal-Mart is evil or not. Personally, I don't think they're evil, and I wish more people understood that capitalism is *amoral*. Suffice to say that I tend not to shop there, but it's because 80% of the time they don't have what I want, and about 15% of the time I want better crap than the crap they sell. But the other 5% of the time, when product and price converge, they can still get my business.

--Dave Althoff, Jr

* Basically, it's IR-270 between OH-161 and OH-161, running from Dublin through Worthington to Westerville. Kind of surprised me to learn that; I always figured it was IR-75 through Cincinnati...

--DCAjr

While were on the topic of SUVs I have a very good reason of owning one. If I had a small car I would be DEAD, I found that the bigger car in the wreck always wins.

The cop even said that if I was in a car when I hit that telephone pole, I would be dead, but in my jeep, I just walked away from it with only a scratch on my nose.

Loopy said:

#1 - Inequality of worker's rights. Discrimination of race and gender for promotions and raises.

Without a source to cite or specific examples of this happening, it's hard to actually prove it's happening. Do you know of any specific examples or are you just using one of the few anti-Walmart sites out there?

Personally, if someone feels they've been discriminated against they are free to leave and find a new job. Nobody is forcing them to work for the company.

#2 - Running and employing slave labor overseas and in turn tossing away countless manufacturing jobs here at home.

It's cheaper to manufacture overseas. If a company has something manufactured overseas, they avoid having to deal with retarded environmental controls and extremely high taxes here. Makes sense to me.

#3 - Poor quality of merchandise. This is what happens when you design and manufacture your own merchandise in sweat shops abroad. While most things you buy today are made somewhere overseas, they aren't designed and manufactured by a company with less than low standards.

That's up to the consumer in a free market society to decide. If they wish to buy poor quality merchandise, then who are you to judge?

#4 - Forcing local communities to give tax breaks in order for them to build in said community. If tax break isn't given they threaten to just move to the next community over that will give the tax break.

Again, I don't see anything wrong here. If City A won't give a tax break but City B does, I know where I'm building my business. Taxes are already extremely high as it is. Catching a break once in awhile is good.

#5 - Anti-union. It's a known fact that this company is as against labor unions as any company could possibly be. Hmm, I wonder why that would be? Refer to reason #1 why I don't shop there.

I would be against unions too if I ran a company. Unions come in, waste time and screw things up. I don't have a problem with workers organizing, but in a truly free society the company should be able to just fire everyone if they want. Nobody is entitled to their jobs.

Jeff said:

I'm not even getting into public transportation

It's too bad public transit sucks so much here in Cleveland. If it was even remotely reasonable, I'd take the train to work in a nanosecond!

Public transportation in Cleveland completely sucks, I agree. I'm astounded at how much better it is in virtually every other city.

Actually, Dave, it's 271 that has the express lanes, not 480. I remember when they opened, and to this day, I'm not sure I understand the need for them. It's the one freeway section in Cleveland not generally crowded. Oh wait...

And I would've pegged Cleveland's inner-belt for most crowded, but I've been on that piece of 270 late rush hour more times than I can count. You'd think I would learn.

I knew it was along the 271 corridor, but I thought 271 and 480 ran together, then one runs out, or something weird like that. All I know is that it's the Interstate that goes to Waldameer. :) I wonder if the idea was to take all that traffic, especially the truck traffic, that runs through there headed for IR-90 and shunt it all off to the express lanes so that the straight-through traffic would have basically no effect on the local stuff. I guess there are an awful lot of people living out that way.

Public transportation sucks in Cleveland and you're astounded at how much better it is in virtually every other city? Obviously Columbus is the exception that proves the rule. I didn't think it was possible for public transit to suck any worse than it does here. To the point where the last time the bus drivers went on strike, almost nobody noticed, and traffic actually *improved* with no buses on the streets!

IR-270 will improve a little when they get the ramps reconfigured. Right now, in the offending section, all the ramps are designed so that the entering and exiting traffic actually have to cross each other, which is a really really stupid design. It reduced the number of bridges they had to build, but it increased the number of accidents and traffic tie-ups, so it really wasn't an acceptable trade-off.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I thought the point of "express" lanes was an "express" route between 480 and 90, then why do they have several merge sections between the two points? Methinks that would cause backups.