Whats with the lighting issue?

Jeff said:
When did recycling and caring about the environment have to do anything with being smug? And even if it did, who cares? I'll take that over pretentious jerks driving giant cars to soccer practice.

Your point about the giant cars reminded me of the "soccer mom" driving a yukon XL or whatever they're called. She has one kid. (local woman)

We can't always jump on the backs of those who drive large gas hogs, playing devils advocate here, some of them probably bought those SUVs when gas wasn't as expensive. The point being isn't that we've become smarter about our purchases in regards to the environment... we've just gotten tighter with our money because the economy sucks, coinciding with a suddenly "going green" rave, maybe offering the misplaced opinion that Americans are caring more about the environment.

And yes, it does cost a lot more...but in all honesty, a Jeep Liberty, which is relatively affordable, is the same cost as a Honda Hybrid. And who gives a crap if a light doesn't turn on instantaneously? It's unfortunate that we've gotten greedy and have raised our standards of living so high that even a minor, and I use that word graciously, inconvienence such as waiting a few more seconds for a light to come on determines how environmentally conscious we get.

So I guess you do not believe in Global Warming then mk522? Even if you don't belive in it, what is wrong with helping the environment?

Never once in my statement did I say it was wrong to help the environment, I did play devil's advocate to the issue Jeff mentioned, but beyond that, please try reading an entire post. In my opinion, humans have simply sped up the whole global warming issue...I'm not convinced its an issue simply caused by us and our abuse of the planet.

Boy!

Talk about hijacking a thread!

It makes me feel good to know that we as humans have the power to change climate. As soon as we can alter hurricane and tornado paths, we won't have a need for any gods at all.

Top Thrill 182 said:
Fact of life is big cars still provide benefits over smaller cars to drivers.

That's not a fact of life, it's a fantasy. I can't think of anything in American culture that represents more about what's wrong with our country than giant cars. Your line of thinking only reinforces that point.

I still don't get what business of yours it is to care what someone other than yourself is driving. Who cares if someone is driving a bigger car than you? There are legitimate reasons people have bigger cars. I did not purchase a small car because it was not adequate for my needs at the time of purchase.

My next purchase will be either a SUV or a van, most likely an SUV. I just don't get how it's any of your business what I am driving?

Because you idiot, it's my planet too! Why is it so hard for you to get your head around that? Furthermore the economic decisions of individuals aggregate to a larger impact on everyone. The stupid decisions of individuals buying too much house or engaging in stupid loans result in record foreclosures making it impossible for my fiance to sell her house at its true value. An increase in gas consumption by way of people commuting further and driving less efficient vehicles drives up the cost of gas. Everything you do affects other people.

Yes, I'm calling you out, because I can't stand this selfish "I can do whatever I want" attitude that you and others have. Look past your own nose for a minute.

Why should he (look past his own nose)?

We have a Vice Presidential candidate who doesn't want to put a species of polar bear on the endangered list because it might hurt the chances of drilling for more oil there and who thinks that drilling is the answer. Yet she's a hunter and fisher? WTF?

If this is the route the country is taking, count me out.

I have to fully agree with Jeff here. I do understand if someone needs a big van or SUV to haul things around. Whether it be a bunch of kids, or work supplies, etc. But if you are buying an SUV just because it "looks cool", at least car pool with someone.

Whether we contributed to global warming or not, it is happening...and at a very fast rate. If we are the most civilized beings on this planet, then why not help it out. I think everyone should do their part to help the environment. If that means not looking cool and driving a smaller car, then so be it.

I am a huge activists for animal rights. The way I see it is this planet is not only our home, but theirs too. And if we are the more civilized beings, then why not help them. Why not help everyone. We can't turn back what has already happened. But by doing the littlest of things...recycling, turning off the water while brushing your teeth, turning off a light when leaving a room, turning off your computer when you are done using it. All of things can help save energy.

Going green shouldn't be a "fad". It should be common sense. You are right mk522. People arn't buying SUV's less because of Global Warming. They are buying them less because of gas prices. It is sad that a lot of people only care about themselves. They only care about what benefits them. People are so selfish that it is rediculous.

Even your boy Barack is warming up to the need for domestic drilling as a short term bridge to other energy solutions (like everyone getting their tires inflated and getting their cars tuned up!) :)

Honestly if any of these people like Al Gore really gave a flying you know what about the environment, they'd stop jetting themselves around the country on private planes. I call that guy and his $100k utility bill out as the biggest hypocrit of all.

New drilling isn't even a short-term answer to anything. New drilling anywhere takes at least ten years to get a drop of oil, and yet politicians are selling it like something that will make gas $1.99 tomorrow. What could we achieve in ten years? There's a reason that VC's are throwing cash at energy startups more than the Internet now.

Why do people like to hate on Al Gore so much? Why would your opinion of him color the very real message he's sending? If Hitler said the sky is blue would you not believe him because he's Hitler?

See, that line of thinking aligns with Ben's "do it for me" attitude. There's this fundamentalist thinking that acts as a shelter that says, "I think, therefore I am, therefore I do what I please because that's my human right." It's such a freakin' cop out. Everyone wants black and white absolutes where you can neatly compartmentalize everything and pretend nothing affects anything else. It's what leads to the divisiveness that has divided this nation to ridiculous extremes. People want to be for or against everything and completely disregard the more sane middle ground.

I hate on Al Gore because he, himself, doesn't follow what he is preaching and I find that hypocritical. I agree with you that people need to take a good look at themselves and their affect they have on the rest of the world, but why should he be the exception just because he can afford to fly himself around on private jets AND pay for some trees to be planted god knows where to "offset" his footprint. The whole idea of offsetting your footprint is bull. It's like taking a crap on one guy's porch and then leaving flowers on another guys to "offset" it. The nice jesture doesn't make up for the first filthy act.

I'm glad money is flowing toward alternative energy projects. That's the free market at work. People like oil man billionaire Boone Pickens, whether you think his "plan" will help or not, are realizing that they won't be making billions off of oil forever, so they better start looking and investing elsewhere for income streams. Alternative energy production could be this country's next great industry and could provide a lot of jobs, money, etc - all those earthly things that everyone wants.

As far as seeing things in black and white, you are one seeing things that way with respect to drilling. It doesn't matter if new drilling sites don't produce anything for 5-10 years - just lifting the ban could have a big affect on prices. The truth is that there is no shortage of oil right now or in the near future and the market has largly been driven up by fears about shortages in the future. Stock and commodity prices are based on what the market believes something (a business or a limited resource) will be worth in the future. If the US would lift the ban on offshore drilling, build a couple more nuclear plants, build some wind turbines, do some solar (an all of the above approach if you will), that will cause world markets to say, "oh crap - maybe they're finally serious about providing their own energy." And oil prices would drop.

Pickens is a crazy old bastard, but wow does he have some nuts. I don't honestly know what kind of impact he'll have, but what he wants to do, in theory, just might work.

Offsetting is total BS, I agree, but I think it came out of an unwillingness of corporations in particular to reduce, which is ultimately the thing that needs to be fixed. It's completely shortsighted.

"Just lifting the ban could have a big affect on prices..." yeah, if you believe that the environmental impact is justified, and it's not. It's a short-term band-aid. Besides, it "could," but economists seem to feel it "won't." The commodities markets are only partially to blame. When you factor in OPEC, wars, natural disasters, etc., there won't be any change. The only real way to lower oil prices is to reduce demand and/or increase supply, and we've seen in recent years that even that may not have any impact on a completely irrational market. In the end, you drill for nothing. It also doesn't change that oil is a finite resource that we will run out of. That's the only absolute we're dealing with.

cant wait till next week when gustav hits the gulf. we will be paying 4.50 a gallon, even thought it takes a month for that oil to effect our gas production...

First, I like how people take only parts and pieces of facts to benefit their argument.

Matt, have you actually done any research as to where Gore gets most of the energy to power his home from? I don't think you did because you'd see that most of it comes from renewable sources such as solar, wind and methane gas.

Second, I like how naive people are about oil and gas prices.

Do you really believe a hurricane in the Gulf next week will affect gas prices in a month literally? In reality it may but that's just due to the issue talked about above where the market is driven by speculation but literally it will have next to no affect on gas prices at the pump. Just another thing that people everywhere buy into without actually knowing what the truth is.

Offshore drilling or opening up the reserves will take years to actually have an affect at the pump. And at most it will be a few cents per gallon.

Loopy is absolutely correct about Gustav's affect on gas prices. While short term, mainly in the next week, gas prices may "shoot up", it's only due to the fact that, as a precaution to the storm, the oil rigs will be shut down. Sadly, oil seems to be more turbulent because of "heresay" when investors think that something may or may not happen because something else may or may not happen, and lately, it's always opposite what they think.

Again, we've sped up the natural processes of global warming and the greenhouse effect, something like that happening so quickly will affect future generations negatively. We can't erase what we've done to the planet in the past, but we can try to have a cleaner future. Nothing will ever erase our environmental mistakes, at best, we'll have less mistakes to make in the future.

^ I apologize. I guess we are on the same page. :)

Jeff said:
Because you idiot, it's my planet too! Why is it so hard for you to get your head around that? Furthermore the economic decisions of individuals aggregate to a larger impact on everyone. The stupid decisions of individuals buying too much house or engaging in stupid loans result in record foreclosures making it impossible for my fiance to sell her house at its true value. An increase in gas consumption by way of people commuting further and driving less efficient vehicles drives up the cost of gas. Everything you do affects other people.

Yes, I'm calling you out, because I can't stand this selfish "I can do whatever I want" attitude that you and others have. Look past your own nose for a minute.

Explain to me how a toyota prius is going to drive me down the highway in 2 feet of snow? How is it going to get me down the muddy dirt road to my cabin? How is it going to hold 4 pairs of skis, 4 people, and all of our other gear?

Who cares if the soccer mom only has 1 kid? I bet that kid has at least a few friends. I used to go to soccer practice with 4 or 5 other kids all the time.

You're an idiot for thinking some tiny little car will fulfill everybody's needs.

The fiddlers fiddle while Rome burns...

MDOmnis said: "Thetruth is that there is no shortage of oil right now or in the nearfuture and the market has largly been driven up by fears aboutshortages in the future."

You're talking out your rectum. Despite crude oil ramping up to sustained $110 + prices, oil production around the globe has been stagnant. This is not the evil plot of speculators, but the physical reality that we have reached global peak oil production. Despite the best efforts of producers around the world, we are simply unable to increase oil production above a ceiling of about 95 million barrels/day.

Soon (within the next one to three years), production will begin dropping. No matter how many new fields we try to bring on line, it will not offset the exponentially greater fields we are now sucking dry. You can cry about ANWR and the California coast all you want, but whether or not we drill them isn't going to make a huge difference. Personally, I'm in favor of drilling almost anywhere we can simply because when the dike is crumbling, any patch on a leak can't hurt. But it ain't gonna save us.

Unless DRAMATIC changes are implemented RIGHT NOW, the world is going to be vastly different, far more unpleasant place in just a few years. We should be kissing T. Boone Pickens' toes and doing anything we can to get off oil while we still have enough other resources to do so.

If I'm proven wrong, I will gladly stand up for a public flaying. I'd much rather be wrong than right about this.

Edit: Can't get the italics to go off. It's so much easier just to hit "Quote"...

Edited to cleared italics - Walt

Edit: Tried my hand at fixing the italics, and I think we've found a bug... - Dave