Whats with the lighting issue?

I don't think that's the case at all. Most people are switching over to CFL's for 90% of their applications.

However, there are still that 10% of applications where incandescents are useful. You say LED's can fill that gap, but most people don't want to pay 20 bucks for a lightbulb, no matter how long it would last. When that price comes down, and it will without having to ban anything, then you'll see people make the switch.

Even more-so, since it is that one or two applications in a home where incandescent beats out a CFL, there is a minimal amount of savings that would be realized by switching. And would probably be a wash once you factor in warm-up time.

But now we're talking about forcing people to switch (oh so very American) because there are 2 or 3 home applications where a CFL just isn't reasonable.

Fine, don't "force" them. Just tax the hell out of anything that is so irresponsibly inefficient.

And really? You're gonna tell me that people in the US will make environmentally conscious decisions whose economic advantages aren't extreme or blatantly obvious or both? Puh-lease.

Just look around at the countless morons trying like hell to sell off their "honky tonkin'" 12mpg SUVs in their front yards (because dealerships wouldn't touch 'em even if they were upholstered with crisp $20 bills). It took gas prices to rise to nearly $5 before people realized that the 5-to-8 seater SUV they never fill to even half its cargo capacity isn't actually necessary. And you really think people will just make the switch on their own, because its Earth-friendly?

I must live in an alternate US where everything is opposite what exists in your neck of the woods. ;)

Did I miss a congressional edict that said gas for gas hogs was to be 5 dollars while the gas for prius' was to be free?

No, the COST of operation finally outweighed the benefit of the vehicle (if there was one for most SUV drivers). The market worked, without interference.

I will be leaving my lights on tomorrow while I am at work just to piss dj off. :)

Well John, now you're looking at it through GOP eyes - that is, its either black or white, and never in-between.

Just because the free market works in some instances doesn't mean it should be the be-all, end-all solution for everything. That's simply asinine.

I have to throw my .02 in on the LED arguement. I know its kinda off topic but im in the fire dept in my town. We have a newer truck. All the warning lights are super bright LED's. Now of course our headlights are not, but every other light from the turn signals to the scene lights are LED. They are actually brighter than the normal IC bulbs in most cars. They are a little more expensive to buy first off, but they last for years. The only thing we had to replace was a fuse.

It never ceases to amaze me how these topics tend to start on valid CP issues then ramble off into social commentary on state of affairs or other same types of rhetoric. :-)

I use compact flourescents - they do appear "eeeerie" with regards to light quality, but are as "green" as we'll get for the near future.

Oh, and I love to leave them on because they only cost me a few cents to operate! ;-)

DJ - but it does work in all situations.

Just because the results generated by a free-market don't match up with your preferred outcome doesn't mean it doesn't work.

Oh, OK. So then it always works. The free market is perfect.

/sarcasm

I don't have many complaints about a free market society.

Nor do I, but what the hell does that have to do with the environment?

The free market isn't responsible for maintaining the planet, obviously, so why would it correct such an issue, even if, according to John, it just should? That's absurd.

Well, your claim is that Congress needs to ban incandescents because that will make room for LED's to become cheaper and more widely available.

My argument is that LED's will become cheaper and more widely available making incandescents obsolete, without interference.

People already choose CFLs without any kind of government mandate, but its not from some ill-focused belief that they are helping the environment. Its because the upfront cost is negligible and the long term savings are enough to make it worth it. The "green" has less to do about helping the environment and more to do with helping ones personal pocketbook.

Why do people want more efficient cars? Not because its enviro-friendly but because they cost less.

Why do people put solar panels on their house?
Why moms tell their kids to shut the door and turn lights off?

The whole "saving the environment" thing is so people can feel like they are part of some larger more noble cause.

Now, don't take this to mean that I think protecting our resources is bad and we should just go ahead and turn Earth into a real-life Coruscant. But I just don't believe that most people's intentions are as noble as they would want everyone to believe.

And that's where you're right - people don't give a damn about the environment, especially in this country. That's why our parents (aka Government) need to step in and do what good parents do when their children are too inept to care for themselves.

That is assuming the environment can't care for itself.

Barring the nuclear obliteration of this planet (and I still think even then) Earth will still be here long after we're gone. When the human race passes like the Dinosaurs, the Earth will still be here. The envirnmental "movement" (and trust me, its a healthy bran fueled "movement") is nothing more than the egotistical attempt to control something over which we never have had and never will have control.

We very much enjoy our 4 window air conditioners (2 @ 12,000 btu and 2 @ 6,000 btu) to keep our house cool all summer. I'm not about to go out and replace a perfectly good furnace so that I can add a central air unit to it. Unless of course you'd like to buy it for us. Oh, and we leave the TV on for the dog when we're gone too. :)

P.S. - Both of our PC's run continuously and I don't even have my hard drive going to sleep...EVAR!!!

Yes, you're correct dj, I am completely inept in taking care of myself. This is why I do these awful unforgivable things.

The free market does work in the general sense. The problem is that Americans in particular ignore it and seem not to have any vision. Take the SUV thing in particular, where sales have plummeted as the cost of gas has gone up. Didn't GM lose more money last year than any company in history? The market is talking there, and the auto industry is obviously not listening.

Energy efficiency and environmentally compatible technology is going to flourish. I'd bet my life on that. What worries me is that the prevailing American attitude that drives so much of the global economy is ignoring these realities, so it'll be smart people and smart consumers in other countries that will drive the change, and we'll all be buying that stuff from them. It's the auto industry on a much broader scale, and it's not a good economic future for us. You can see it every time you see some tool driving around in a Hummer.

And what annoys me even more is that people mask the issues with stupid ideological nonsense about unrelated political crap. It clouds our culture. If prevailing culture doesn't change, then we'll be followers instead of leaders.

But hey, if you read that climate change is just a myth on the Internet, it must be true!

The market is talking there, and the auto industry is obviously not listening.

And that is the market working.

Those that don't listen, will be pulled under by the market. Unfortunately, the big 3 are a keystone of the American economy. Its not just them, but all their suppliers that would suffer if they were to go under.

But the market did work. The people (market) began to demand more fuel efficiency, and the companies that provided it reaped the benefits while those that harkened back to the glory days of 2.00 gas (I know, glory days) saw their company begin to whither.

Only 2 computers Loopy? I've got 2 running just at this desk. :)

I don't get why hate someone driving a hummer? If they want to drive one, let them. What business is it of yours to care what someone else drives?

You all seem to have a good grip on traditional lights and LED’s. You may be able to help me with a question that I have been struggling with.

I have a deep end pool light that is rated for 500 Watts and seems to burn out frequently (every year or so, but I have also run it with a 300 watt bulb). I believe most of the burn out is due to some high temps in my pool. I generally keep it around 88 to 92 degrees between June and September. I think this is causing problems with the heat in the actual unit, thus would like to replace the bulb with an LED (since they run cooler).

I have linked the best LED I can find to date, but cannot figure out how the brightness will compare to my current lamp.

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com/led_floodlight

What you would want to do is compare Lumens between the two bulbs, it is a measure of the "candle-power" or brightness of a particular light source.

I notice the page you linked to (which wasn't one particular floodlight) does provide lumens in the details of each bulb. I would look up that information
for the bulbs you have been using and see how they compare.