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Straw man king over here.

Worlds of fun, Kennywood, Dorney Park are all local parks. Cedar Point has a much bigger market then just a normal local park.

MagnumMatt:

Maybe new trains to make them lighter so they could convert to an LSM? Just a thought. Yeah does cost more but if this is the target for 2024 then it’s next years budget for a new ride for 2024.

Have you seen one of the trains unassembled during the off-season? In my opinion, they could easily be modified to whatever they wanted. Even if the trains were 70% new, why not use what you can from the old trains? It would also save time on manufacturing. You wouldn't have to wait for parts that you already have. Here is a photo from 2015 of one of the trains during the off-season.

https://flic.kr/p/rjtVXT

Jeff, I think you're grossly underestimating the draw from Michigan. It extend greatly outside of Metro Detroit. I'm 2 hours north and I have yet to meet a person who hasn't been to CP. And about 80% of those people are lifetime regulars. In my extended family alone we have about 40 passholders. I understand that the population dwindles the further north but there's an enormous amount of people north of Detroit. Michigan is way more than just Detroit. I do agree that it is a semi-regional park bit it's reach is wider than you lead us to believe.

Magnum Chris - Thanks for sharing! Have never been lucky enough to do a winter chill out!

With the way Cedar Fair has been wanting to make things uniform across the board, whatever they change the name of the ride to, I just hope it isn’t renamed “Backlot Stunt Coaster” or “Flight Deck”.

Which brings me to this question: a few years ago, wasn’t it reported that Cedar Fair trademarked the name “Centurion” or something like that? Was that name every used throughout the CF chain?

vwhoward:

Jeff, I think you're grossly underestimating the draw from Michigan. It extend greatly outside of Metro Detroit. I'm 2 hours north and I have yet to meet a person who hasn't been to CP.

Whereabouts do you live, out of curiousity? Because 2 hours north of Detroit is Midland-ish.

It certainly wouldn't surprise me to learn that people along I-69 would be regulars, since many are transplants from Metro Detroit.

I know quite a few in the Saginaw area who are regular Cedar Pointers.

Do y'all not call that Southern Michigan? Is anything not the UP Southern Michigan? I wouldn't know what you call it because of that silly hand thing you do.

vwhoward:

I do agree that it is a semi-regional park bit it's reach is wider than you lead us to believe.

Do y'all honestly think that in 23 years of doing this and calling the former GM a friend who wrote a book about this all, I never had detailed discussions about where the park was drawing people from? Give me a little credit.

The Saginaw area is the line where many michiganders from the south eastern side consider "up north".

All this Michigan talk makes me think of this, lol.

Jeff,

It really depends on who you ask and where they live. For example, I live in Taylor which is about 35 miles north of the Ohio border. If I go to the Gaylord area (middle of the "hand"), I consider it "up north" considering it took me 3.5 hours to get there. It's definitely outside the Detroit metro area though which what I think Joe was referencing.

However, even further north is Traverse City. I was there a few years ago and talking to bartender about how long it had been since I was "up north." He stated that locals only consider the UP as "up north." So it guess it really depends on who you talk to from MI.

I think DRE is right though that someone from the Detroit area would consider anything north of Saginaw as "up north."

the argument from authority is a fallacy.

Jeff - I listened to to your appearance on The Daily J. I think you made a lot of great points however, i guess I don't understand you'r argument on here? Is it that adding to the layout as the ride currently stands too much of a capital investment? Or is it that Cedar Point isn't in the business of bigger and badder? I

What is your possession? Tearing down the tower seems to me just as silly as adding 40ft to the tower.

(whisper voice) by the way. Maverick is taller than 100ft.

Jeff:

Do y'all not call that Southern Michigan?

Depends on who you ask, but no, Saginaw would not be considered Metro Detroit by most people. I've come to define it as anywhere south and east of the city of Flint, which is about an hour NE of Detroit.

The only argument ("possession?") that I'm making is that anyone who believes Cedar Point needs to build the whatever-est because they always have or the park is a super-mega-global destination or whatever is wrong. Nothing illustrates that more than their continued rise in revenue building restaurants while they tear down giant expensive rides. They may very well do so, but to suggest they must is wishful enthusiast thinking.

^ No one is saying they "must".

They are saying that due to the historical moves by the park, it seems likely.

What do you think they're doing, Jeff?

Dude, you're arguing semantics. Past precedent doesn't dictate future action. The entire leadership of the company is different. "They" built a train station to Cleveland once, too.

I don't know what they're going to do, and if I did, I wouldn't put it here. But there's a reason that the Aquatrax meme and others exist, and that's because there's a long history of wild imagination here that generally ignores the most basic business principles.

DJ, I live in Bay City. About 2 hours from Detroit Proper. I am a little confused though...I-69 is not near me or Midland. Midland is about a 10 minute drive. Wait, you also consider Flint "Metro Detroit"? It's not even close to Detroit. I would argue that one with you all day. And i go to Detroit a lot. 🤣

Jeff, Southern Michigan is Detroit or maybe Flint and south. I live in what we would call Mid-Michigan. Anything north of me, Bay City, is definitely north. The UP is the UP. Flat out. You don't say you're going up north if you're going over the bridge. You say you're going to the UP. Also, if you consider the entire mitten, then you're closet to right than I previously thought. But you just don't know what to call us! Ha!

I think anytime there’s a new attraction or construction site at the park, logic and common sense goes out the window in the enthusiast community.

If by now you can’t see the direction the park is taking with regard to new investments then I’m not sure what else to say. They do not need the worlds tallest or fastest anything anymore. They had record attendance again this season and that was without Wicked Twister and TTD. Pretty sure that says it all.

And while I don’t live in Florida I am a UOAP and even I know it’s ridiculous to even try and draw comparisons between theme parks and Cedar Point.

Given the walls that went up today this is far more than just “new trains” or “new paint”. Heck even the ride sign itself is gone. That’s pretty telling to me. But then again I’m just using the powers of observation.

A crazy idea just occurred to me. Could they have hired a different company (B&M et. al.) to update the entire ride (track, launch, ...), and just utilize the old tower? If we see track removed from the tower, then I would say this option is likely. Since they didn't say anything about this in the 2023 announcement, then I wonder if this is a bigger project than one off season?

There is a meaningful difference between "Must" and "seems likely." Most, if not all, arguments are really just over the definitions of words. Using "Your arguing semantics" is like pulling the escape hatch instead of just addressing what was said. Jeff it feels like you are arguing with positions that we don't have. None of us know what the park is going to do. Whatever they do will be a big investment. If thats replacing the launch, adding to the layout, or taking the tower down, all will cost a crazy amount of money. Sometimes its fun to dream. (if i dont get my 500ft aquatrax i will burn down a lemon chill stand)

I agree with you! Cedar Point is moving away from maintenance nightmares to restaurants. Im pumped with the boardwalk addition. I love all the improvements to food in the park. To me its up to the quick service standard at some of the Disney parks.