Steel Vengeance

Enthusiasts aren't always inconsequential. At large corporate parks like CP, they typically are, but some smaller parks take enthusiasts' advice on a rare occasion. I believe Legend and Voyage at HW were partly designed with advice from enthusiasts, particularly in Legend's case.

In the case of Steel Vengeance, it's obvious that they weren't inspired by enthusiasts because if they were,the conversion would have happened earlier :P. (Just joking.)

That said, if CP had jumped on the RMC train earlier, we probably would have gotten a slightly more modest layout like NTAG. It seems as if it was well worth the wait.

RyanRSheets said:

My guess is they struck some sort of deal and got a significant break on Mean Streak.

RMC has arguably the most popular product in the industry at the moment. What sense would it make for RMC to offer a discount? It's not as if RMC needs the publicity.

Parks survey their guests, some of them just happen to be enthusiasts. Enthusiasts always overestimate their importance. Their importance to the park usually equals the cost of admission.

There used to be a perceived dichotomy between what enthusiasts wanted and what was thought to be acceptable to the general public. However a few brave parks built rides with more forces and they seem to be popular. Now we should see more of it.

djDaemon said:

RyanRSheets said:

My guess is they struck some sort of deal and got a significant break on Mean Streak.

RMC has arguably the most popular product in the industry at the moment. What sense would it make for RMC to offer a discount? It's not as if RMC needs the publicity.

agreed, if a company knows their product is in that big a demand there is no way they would toss a discount out. The opposite usually happens where prices start to go up lol

Paul Florio said:

djDaemon said:

RyanRSheets said:

My guess is they struck some sort of deal and got a significant break on Mean Streak.

RMC has arguably the most popular product in the industry at the moment. What sense would it make for RMC to offer a discount? It's not as if RMC needs the publicity.

agreed, if a company knows their product is in that big a demand there is no way they would toss a discount out. The opposite usually happens where prices start to go up lol

Was their product in that high demand when this project was conceived, likely at least a couple years ago given the complexity of this ride? They had a good relationship with Six Flags, a one-off with Silver Dollar City and a few rides in development depending exactly when they started figuring cost. They didn't open a single coaster in 2017.

The prospect of a long term relationship with Cedar Fair would be pretty big even if they were already fully booked. Cedar Point is *the* park to win, and a flagship coaster at Cedar Point is even better. Pretty sure Fred Grubb himself has basically said this.

As someone else noted, NTG was renovated for $10 million. Doubling that for the decidedly next level interpretation we're getting with Steel Vengeance doesn't seem unreasonable from either side.

If they started planning this a few years ago wouldn't that have placed the beginnings of this project around the time of all the other projects? I don't think the fact that they didn't open a ride in 2017 has anything to do with it. They may not have opened any in 2017 but, SV construction has been in full swing since sept 2016. They also skipped 2012. Maybe with this huge project they decided they couldn't do any 2017 installs on top of the fact they have had the single rail in development for the past few years.

They had a good relationship with Six Flags because Sif Flags pretty much converted all their wooden coasters, once they are all converted there no need for RMC anymore, unless its a new ground up build, even thought RMC does do installs of other manufactures rides for example El Toro at Great Adventure. SO I don't think RMC needs to give anyone "deals" but that's just my opinion

I think you contradict yourself.

You say that Six Flags has pretty much converted all of their wooden coasters so they have no need for RMC anymore. Wouldn't that mean RMC needed to find new customers--possibly by offering discounts?

That's kind of my point on their Six Flags relationship. It doesn't look like they have a lot more work coming up with them aside from the possibility of more raptor/t-rex coasters. Meanwhile Cedar Fair has by far the largest collection of potential conversion candidates and only minor repair/retracking in the past. If they have any business sense, they've been trying to get in on that gold mine for a while.

Of course, it's ultimately of little consequence so long as the ride is successful and Cedar Point reaps a profit. I just really doubt Cedar Point / Cedar Fair execs would have allowed a massive spend on "renovating" a poorly perceived ride versus other options, especially while they're spending so much on the hotels and other parts of the property. If they spent 35 million, that's easily 2 or even 3 smaller coasters, something the park frankly lacks quality options for at this point. I would love to see a EuroFighter or El Loco, something modern to replace Wildcat (build it right over the top of those stupid bleachers), a spinning coaster and lots of other cheap thrills. Of course I'd rather have Steel Vengeance for my selfish reasons, but if it really does come with a massive price tag, I'll have to ask what they were thinking.

This has me very interested in how much this is actually running them. I feel its either way cheaper or way more than we are all thinking. I don't think there would be a number that would get the reaction of "oh that seems right"

I suppose I don't see where they have the #1 product. They mostly sell conversions for existing coasters, a fundamentally limited market. They've shown that they can build a custom wooden coaster from scratch, but that is a limited market too; there is a stigma against wood these days. They offer a single rail steel option but its capacity isn't an option for large parks; really not an option here unless they've already made some deals for t-rex. In most cases this is going to mean they can build or renovate one or 2 rides, and unless they win a franchise they're going to have to sell those 1 at a time.

Compare that to B&M, they can build you 9 different types of high reliability, high uptime coasters most with outstanding capacity. Probably no coincidence they're also building more coasters year by year.

Their coasters are top notch no doubt, from what I have seen there's an argument to be made that they make the best coasters on Earth, I don't see where they're #1 for a profit minded park. Earning Cedar Fair's business is a huge deal for RMC.

To me it seems that there really isn't much of a reason for RMC to discount a particular ride for Cedar Fair. If Steel Vengeance would have cost $20 million but they knock it down to $17 million (random numbers here) with the hope of securing future projects with the company they will have devalued their product and set an artificially low baseline for future work. When the next quote comes in at a higher rate Cedar Fair could simply reply, "Thanks, we've decided to go in a different direction." Even though RMC has a unique product there is nothing which states that Cedar Fair "must" have a portfolio full of RMC attractions. Sure, it'd be nice, but there are other options to enhance the other parks.

If any discounts were given I think they would have come in the form of a multi-year / multi-ride package for various parks within the chain. By quoting several projects at once RMC could discount the total based upon the size and scope of work involved without necessarily devaluing their work for separate individual projects either within Cedar Fair's brand or other parks.

Of course no one here really knows so this is all just a guess. For all we know Cedar Fair is paying RMC with sticks of Trident gum and IOUs for hugs from Snoopy. :)

RyanRSheets said:

I suppose I don't see where they have the #1 product.

You're being too narrow in how you define "#1 product". A product need not be the most high tech, the prettiest, or whatever. It just needs to be in high demand. And RMC conversions clearly are in high demand, and their original products are generating increased demand as well.

...there is a stigma against wood these days.

If anything, wood coasters are experience something of a renaissance right now, as creators and customers have found that there's a "sweet spot" in terms of how big and fast you can make a wood coaster while keeping it manageable from a maintenance perspective. As opposed to the 90's, when parks were stupidly building the highest wood coasters they could afford.

In most cases this is going to mean they can build or renovate one or 2 rides, and unless they win a franchise they're going to have to sell those 1 at a time.

That's just factually incorrect. They have 4 products debuting in 2018: 2 I-Box conversions, and 2 Raptors. And they're at their capacity for 2018, so it's possible they'd be building more if they had the capability to do so.

Compare that to B&M, they can build you 9 different types of high reliability, high uptime coasters most with outstanding capacity. Probably no coincidence they're also building more coasters year by year.

And how many in the US for 2018? I'll save you from looking. The answer is zero. The US is reaching saturation with B&M product.

Their coasters are top notch no doubt, from what I have seen there's an argument to be made that they make the best coasters on Earth...

And again, I think this is where the disconnect is. I'm not saying they make the best coasters on Earth. I'm simply saying that at this point in time they make products that are in incredibly high demand.

If I'm Fred Grub, and CF asked for a discount on a ride, I would politely let them know that we'd be delighted to work with them, but considering RMC can't keep up with demand from other customers, we're not in a position to offer a discount. But sure, if demand dies down in a few years, we can talk. Until then, CF will have to deal with not having one of the hottest products on the market. :-)

djDaemon said:

That's just factually incorrect. They have 4 products debuting in 2018: 2 I-Box conversions, and 2 Raptors. And they're at their capacity for 2018, so it's possible they'd be building more if they had the capability to do so.

I'm sure you have a citation for this? Does that mean they were at capacity in 2017 as well? How many feet of track is "capacity"? How many simultaneous projects is "capacity"? They are working at their desired pace, regardless of the absolute ability to do more.

By limiting the number of projects (supply) they agree to, they can artificially increase the demand for the product they offer. We've seen the market swing from one manufacturer to another quite rapidly in the last 20 years.

Actually, it was 2017 when they were at their capacity with 4 projects. And I am not aware of any additions to their capacity since then. But it stands to reason that with the demand, they're building as much as they can*.

*EDIT - Of course they could invest heavily in capacity, but that would be unwise, for a number of reasons, including over-extension and loss of quality control. But the point is that they have more customers than capacity, so there is no logical reason to provide a discount.

Regardless of what their capacity is, did they have other customers who wanted their services? If not, it is a buyers' market, not a sellers' market

djDaemon said:

Actually, it was 2017 when they were at their capacity with 4 projects. And I am not aware of any additions to their capacity since then. But it stands to reason that with the demand, they're building as much as they can*.

*EDIT - Of course they could invest heavily in capacity, but that would be unwise, for a number of reasons, including over-extension and loss of quality control. But the point is that they have more customers than capacity, so there is no logical reason to provide a discount.

Less is more theory comes into play for sure.

djDaemon said:

That's just factually incorrect. They have 4 products debuting in 2018: 2 I-Box conversions, and 2 Raptors. And they're at their capacity for 2018, so it's possible they'd be building more if they had the capability to do so.

Actually, I believe Fred Grubb said they have 7 projects for 2018. So far 3 I-box conversions and 2 Raptors have been confirmed. It's rumored that RMC is working on an I-Box in Japan and I presume the other is Kennywood's, but I think that may get pushed to 2019 since I don't believe the city has approved it yet.

The Ride Warriors Club had a hard hat construction tour of Steel Vengeance this morning. Going to be an amazing coaster looking at it up close. Here are some pics I took:

https://goo.gl/photos/xP2RxzHwv3X2fv1r8

Nice photos DSShives, looks like they are about to the final brake. Looking at one of the first pics, there seemed to be a walkway leading under the structure into the queue line for the former Eden Musee, just to the right of the original entrance for MS. Maybe that will be the new entrance?