smoking and littering problem

Ensign Smith said:
But just as I support legalization of drugs and prostitution, I nevertheless wouldn't want those activities to be permitted without intelligent regulation.

Except we aren't discussing intelligence or regulation. This is just a flat ban.

I said for a long time, use this as a way to raise extra revenue via permits. A businesses that wants to allow smoking can purchase a permit to allow it on their premesis. Some would see that as an unneccessary expense and just go non-smoking, some would see it as worthwhile and everyone wins.

My recollection of Ohio before the ban (northeast Ohio anyway) was that there were still a lot of restaurants that had smoking sections. Probably not all but I do not remember being too focussed on it at the time because I didn't view it as a big issue. But if there were restaurants that went non-smoking (in Ohio, Michigan and elsewhere), that is the way it should be. My comments about the market was in response to folks who say that we needed bans because businesses were not banning smoking on their own out of a fear of losing business.

You should not be "free" to expose those around you to harmful carcinogenic toxic fumes wherever you choose. These bans aren't an limit on freedom, its quite the opposite to a vast majority of Americans. We are now free of smoke fumes at resturants and bars in Ohio and it is wonderful.

Kids are harmful and annoying to me. Ban them from restaurants.

Now that I'm not smoking in a separated bar area, I'm outside the front door making anyone who wants to even set foot in the business breathe my smoke.

I'm just being a considerate smoker and standing by the ash tray. Just like New York City where the sidewalks are crowded as it is, now you can't walk down Queens Blvd in Sunny Side without breathing second hand smoke or kicking around cigarette butts.

Its wonderful now that indor smoking ban is in effect.

Edit: ^hahaha... I second that.

I find it easy to hold my breath for the few seconds it takes to pass through the area outside the front door where someone may be smoking. Not a problem. Now, if you were smoking inside, that would be a problem.

Touchdown said:
You should not be "free" to expose those around you to harmful carcinogenic toxic fumes wherever you choose. These bans aren't an limit on freedom, its quite the opposite to a vast majority of Americans. We are now free of smoke fumes at resturants and bars in Ohio and it is wonderful.

Let's spin that around on you...

You should not be "free" to impose your choices on others regarding legal behavior.

You've always been free to quit whining and start speaking with your wallet. You have largely chosen not to - i.e. you still go to those awful, harmful, terrible smoke-filled restaurants, and then bitch about how awful, harmful, terrible and smoke-filled it was. Then you go back the following week. Brilliant.

I don't know, literally every single bowling alley in Michigan is smoke-filled, I can't do it, the smoke really make my asthma act up. On the other hand, bowling in Toledo is awesome now because of the ban.

There are situations on both sides that make both cases perfectly correct.

No, there aren't. If there were a market for smoke-free bowling alleys, they'd exist. At least one bowling alley near me is smoke-free (aside from the enclosed bar) every Sunday. And guess what? No law-making was required.

Its like anything else. If you don't want to be exposed to naked women and crappy music, don't go to strip clubs. Trying to pass legislation banning them outright is the epitome of anti-American behavior (read: morality legislation).

I think you're just totally incorrect. Even people I know who smoke, gripe about how all the bowling alleys are so thick with smoke in Michigan. And bowling at a select bowling alley between 10:00 and noon on Sundays is not appealing.

And I'm not talking about stripping, I'm talking about bowling. Don't turn the arguement into something it's not.

Ummm... I'm a former smoker, and I agree completely that being in smoky bars is horrible. So you know what I do? I don't go to those places. Crazy, I know.

And you're incorrect - the bowling alley is smoke-free for the entire day on Sunday. I bet that if they did their biggest business on that day, they'd go completely smoke-free. Business like money, after all.

And I'm not turning the argument into anything. I'm simply trying to explain my position through metaphor, since you seem unable to grasp the other side of the argument. Clearly, the metaphor didn't help either.

Your metaphor was rediculous. As stripping is the object of the trip to a strip club, while bowling would be the point of a trip to a bowling alley. How you related stripping to stripping and smoking to bowling was...again...rediculous.

Ok then, Karaoke.

Not only can most of the drunken sods who try it not carry a tune with a bucket but it offends my ear and my enjoyment of actual music.

But you know what? Instead of whining about it and getting karaoke outlawed, I just don't go to places when they have karaoke. I've even walked into a bar, found out that they had karaoke going on and left.

Just like you have the freedom to walk into a bar, realize they allow smoking, and go somewhere else. Its really not that hard of a concept.

Well, it IS a hard concept if your IQ is similar to your shoe size.

Jugg, correct, except I'm not saying I don't like smoke filled bars, because they're filled with smoke. If I was saying I can't stand bowling but everytime I go to a bowling alley there's bowling going on you'd be right. My point is there are no non smoke-filled bowling alleys (aside from apparently one on sunday morning by DJ) in Michigan.

I started by saying there were cases on both sides that make both parties correct, I don't disagree there are scenarios where smokers get ripped off as well.

The tides have turned for smokers.

Some 66 percent of Michigan residents said they favored the ban in a poll conducted in March.

American Cancer Society, were ecstatic.

Stewart said people who work in restaurants where smoking is allowed are 50 percent more likely to develop lung cancer.

“The majority of Michigan workers will have a smoke-free work environment, and there will be less cases of cancer, asthma, heart disease. The list goes on and on,” Stewart said. “Second-hand smoke is a real killer and a real disease cause in our state, so this is huge.”

Michigan, whose ban will take effect in May, joins 37 states with similar laws.

“Overall this is going to be great for business because the majority of the population doesn’t smoke,” Stewart said. “More of them will stay out longer, and they’ll spend more money.”

“It hasn’t hurt restaurants in any other place where this has been done,” she said. “They have their head in the sand if they think it’s something that’s going to hurt business. It’s a change for businesses, and people will get used to it.”

Josh Evans, bar manager for Saline’s Brecon Grille, said the restaurant couldn’t risk banning smoking while its competitors allowed it. He said he doesn’t anticipate a drop in sales after the ban takes effect.

“If it’s a blanket policy that’s going to affect all bars and restaurants, it’s not going to take the wind out of our sails,” Evans said.

Gary Wheelock, manager of downtown restaurant Arbor Brewing Company, said sales dipped briefly after the restaurant disallowed smoking Aug. 5.

“Still, it came right back to where it was before,” he said. “Eventually they just decided to come back and hang out here, because they like our beer and they like our servers. I don’t think there's a lot of negative effect from it.”

Wheelock praised the Senate’s move and said the ban would benefit the state.

“I completely see it as a positive thing,” he said. “It’s a healthier environment for our servers, everyone at a restaurant, to work in. It discourages people from smoking, which is a very destructive behavior. When you smoke, everyone around you smokes.”

I did not see a bunch of restaurants and bars closing down in ohio after the ban Believe it or not.

"Dj daemon said"

"No, there aren't. If there were a market for smoke-free bowling alleys, they'd exist. At least one bowling alley near me is smoke-free (aside from the enclosed bar) every Sunday. And guess what? No law-making was required."

Lets turn the table. How about the bowling alley only allowed smoking on sunday?

Just kinda have to deal with it huh?

Asking the ACS about smoking is like asking PETA about the Nathan's hotdog eating contest.

crazy horse said:

Lets turn the table. How about the bowling alley only allowed smoking on sunday?

Just kinda have to deal with it huh?

I couldn't care less how these PRIVATE businesses conduct themselves within the law. That's the entire point. If a bowling alley can profit by becoming smoke-free, I applaud them for that. But I'm not so self-centered that I feel the need to enact legislation for it.

djDaemon said:

crazy horse said:

Lets turn the table. How about the bowling alley only allowed smoking on sunday?

Just kinda have to deal with it huh?

I couldn't care less how these PRIVATE businesses conduct themselves within the law. That's the entire point. If a bowling alley can profit by becoming smoke-free, I applaud them for that. But I'm not so self-centered that I feel the need to enact legislation for it.

Apparintly the majority of people do though.

Yeah, because 78% of MI residents are non-smokers. Legislation is supposed to protect the minority against the majority, NOT the other way around. You know, because that 78% could and should have spoken with their wallets.

But they're classic examples of whiny, self-centered Americans.