Ridiculous Changes

I was holding back on that comment on the employees writing on the doors in fear that all hell would break loose lol. I know them personally and they were great workers but it's not their work performance that got them fired it was their stupidity for writing it. End of discussion on the employees writing I don't want this topic to be closed like previous ones have been. Thank You.
*** Edited 6/16/2005 2:33:36 AM UTC by 1/2ofthetwoheadedmonster***

This thread makes me really sad, and somewhat encouraged at the same time.

I'm normally a lurker, with only a few posts to my name. But I am encouraged to see that others are noticing the same things I've been noticing, and I'm no longer afraid that Jeff or Walt might just say, "Oh, that's Western Cruiser whining about things way back when."

I, too, am one of the folks who can no longer fit in MF (and other rides, I 'm sure), and while I understand that CP must comply with the state's requirement to adhere to manufacturer's recommendations, I am so frustrated with this litigiousness in today's society. In that respect, I guess, CP is no different than any other park who's in the proverbial "bind." But will that trend ever get better? When can parks like CP begin to say, "Enough is enough?"

This thead has it the nail on the head: it's more than seatbelts and gates and "V areas" (I haven't been on the Magnum platform this year, so I don't yet know what folks are talking about in that instance). The people speaking on this board are right, I think--it's the attitude and operations--not necessarily the fault of the ride ops, but of whoever is managing them or what policies those folks are devising.

As I child, I marveled at the sights and sounds of the Million Dollar Midway, and I grew up with the Mine Ride (4-5 trains), Gemini (6 trains, no belts for a while), and bench-seated Blue Streak (with the buzzing lap bars and the lever brakes)--on which, if I remember correctly, seat belts were optional. There was shade all over the park, the employees felt free to chat, shake hands, and smile at children and families enjoying the rides. Although always busy, the park never seemed crowded, and I remember fondly the "bonus" evenings when, around 8 or 9 (the park closed at 10), the ride ops would announce that, "For your enjoyment, the park will be open an extra hour tonight." Capacity was never a problem--the rides always ran to the max. Safely. And it was a big deal for a kid if an employee gave you a "High Five!"

It's just not that way any more.

Now, don't get me wrong--I understand the need to keep up with the competition, and I've gotten used to (if not accepting of) the destruction of trees and shade for new (and, admittedly, terrific) coasters and other rides. I do understand the bottom line--the park is a business. But there is a point of balance somewhere, and I'm afraid with the present state of operations, that balance is being lost. (And it's been that way since Mantis or MF, I believe--when did Meirs leave?)

It's very hard to find a spot in line for families with kids ('middle age' kids) where there isn't music blasting way too loud, or for a spot to sit in the shade and watch the people pass, etc. How many of us know that the midway train station is actually decorated? (The hideous screen hides it now.)

This also reminds me of the thread about Calypso--and other rides with cool things like the Magnum tunnels, and DT's theming, etc.--maintainence on "non-essentials" seems to be non-existant sometimes. (Again, likely not a fault of the staff, but of the policies.)

I'm not sure whether it's in top management or not--I tend to think not. We always make it a point to say "Hello" to the suits as they walk through the park, and Mr. Kinzel is always very pleasant when a guest recognizes him and complements him on the park. (In fact, my wife & I have a new baby--our first--and were walking on the beach opening day when Messrs. Kinzel and Falfas walked by--we said hello, and introduced them to our next-generation CP junkie. They spoke to us at length, and encouraged us to stay for the fireworks. Always polite and pleasant.)

I'm not an employee, don't know many, and am certainly not qualified to point fingers, but there is some problem, somewhere.

I don't know--has the park just gotten "too big" to manage in the old style? When employees can't give a child a high five, when the park refuses to run 2 trains on CP&LE RR after 8pm--if at all--and when, on Paddlewheel Excursions (the pitiful remnants of the Western Cruise), the boats constantly run the circuit at full throttle--not slowing to see the indivdiual scenes--and the captains can't even turn around briefly to interact with the guests, there's just something wrong.

I grew up loving CP, and I still do, but it's getting harder and harder to love. The family park, where the guest experience seemed foremost, seems to be going by the wayside more and more.

I hope Jeff is right in what he said a few posts back in this thread--that folks in management are listening. I sure hope some positive changes come in the near future.

Sorry--rant off. I'll go back to my rocking chair and whine about the old days (BTW, I'm only 34.)

While at the park today, I noticed that there were "suits" standing in several of the stations viewing operations (I saw them on Mean Streak, Magnum, and Gemini). Maybe they were observing and realizing how drastically things have deteriorated from the ride-op/guest interaction point of view? Not likely, but just a thought...

Time for a youngan’s point of view. Being 14 I’ve only really started noticing customer service and prices within the past couple of years, and to be frank, outside of a couple of places it sucks everywhere. Customer service is something that just isn’t around anymore. All that is delivered is 1) product, 2) that mediocre product in a quick amount of time.

The first place is the restaurant industry. Just as at Cedar Point there’s no relation between your server and you or between the ride op. and you. During your meal, could you honestly tell me your server’s name? Just like during a ride, can you name 3 points that they say in the safety spiel? To be memorable you have to provide something special. There are only two kinds of products, good or bad. When you walk into a restaurant, your cheeseburger is either good or bad. Never great, just good or bad. Just like CP’s coasters are good along with Six Flags Magic Mountain, Six Flags Great America, King’s Island, Geuaga Lake and a couple of other places. Sure, they may have better, but not really that much to where a family from California will come for the product. The only difference that attracted people was service, ride ops. giving spiels and the other magical things I’ve heard about that made Cedar Point great. That’s gone all you have is product.

The second industry I see a connection to is the service industry. Can you tell me your mechanics name? No, you pull into Jiffy Lube and have someone throw oil into your car. Oil change in 20 minutes or less, we’ll give you car a complete tune-up! But do you really trust these strangers? Do you really trust the used car salesman trying to rip you off? Same with your barber. Can you tell me the name of your barber? Can you tell the name of your dentist? Of your Doctor? No, I can’t. I get my hair cut at Best Cuts, have whoever isn’t taken at the time look at my teeth.

Now I’m sure your saying what does this have to do with Cedar Point? Know the time thing doesn’t affect Cedar Point, but Cedar Point sees the drop in customer satisfaction and thinks it’s okay to drop down a bit. Who will notice if capacity drops a bit, not the once a year family. We have the best product in the world, we don’t need anything else. Well, I guess the ghosts in a Field of Dreams wasn’t right. I guess if you build it, it doesn’t mean they will come.

I agree with everything everybody ahs said. In 2003 My size was just on the border for fitting in MF. I fit in the test seat and when i got to the ride I couldn't ger the belt buckled. I gave a struggle when they asked me to lewave the train but i did eventually. I talked with the ride host and she said she would call one of her supervisors. The suprevisor came to the ride and talked with me and asked me to try the test seat. She saw that I fit and said she would do whatever it takes so I would be satisfied. We went back up to the platform and she had me sit in the front seat. Unfortunately I couldnt fit the belt. She said that since I got the test seat buckled she would, since the employees can't pull on the belt, let my friend pull it tight and buckle it for me. That's always the kind of caring and service CP had offered. Unfortunatley since that time anytime anyting is said about not fitting they give you a canned response that honestly I hate hearing. I can fint on it at noght but not during the morning. When I had problems before everyone was atleast nice about the problem. Now all I get is attitude when i return in the evening for a ride. It's just a shame that things have gone so downhill. It seems like they are no longer there to please the guests.

About the corkscrew thing. I personally think the seatbelts are a good idea for the larger guests. Before it depended on who checked the harness to see if it was down far enough. Now there can be no question. If the belt buckles then I can ride.

You don't even have to go to the park to notice something has changed... look right here on PB.

"MF load time slower"
"Do you miss the way the Blue Streak used to be?"
"Ridiculous Changes"
"Weight Issues..."
"The Giraffe is gone."
"Calypso looking bare"
Posts on how lame the laser show is getting
etc.

Like a few people noticed I wonder how much this will effect the bottom line as once a year visitors may not notice.

Has anyone else noticed it seems when you go to order a pizza or chicken fingers at a stand its "hold on it will be 5 mins, we have to put one in the oven/frier"?

Someone else mentioned the family thing... I think that is where Cedar Point falls short. For those 10 year olds who are too old for Camp Snoopy but don't want to ride Corkscrew, there is nothing compared to PKI and other parks.

There are several keys to guest enjoyment:

Cleanliness is ALWAYS a major key to success. Enough said there.

Atmosphere is always a key to guest enjoyment. Employees that are having fun adds to that experience (welcome back Magnum riders--how was your rrrriiiidddeeee????!!!). Ride hosts that give you some facts about the coasters ADDS to the anticipation of the big ride! It seems that this has been lost recently with the robotic sounding auto-spiels. An employee willing, without being asked, to help fasten a seat belt, or to snap a family picture, goes a long way in adding to the guests' experience.

Another key is eye stimulation--When the park is open late at night, there is nothing like seeing a midway bathed in lights. Compare a walk down what is now the Iron Dragon Midway at night in 1983, -vs- today. In 1983, you had several rides in that area (Schwabinchen, Monster, Bayern Kurve) that were just lit to the rafters with lights. Today, if you walk down that midway, sure, you have the WildCat, but besides that, it's just boredom for the eyes.

Another key to enjoyment is getting a good return on your hard earned dollar, and granted, prices go up over the course of time. People don't mind paying extra for something IF the product is superior to anything else. $3 for a 20 ounce Pepsi is still about 3 times as expensive as one that can be bought at a gas station. I still to this day remember my dad saying "let the great gouge begin" when entering the parking lot of any place that charged for parking. That was when parking was only $3 (and they "trammed" you to the gate then), and the gate price was around $13. If he could still go, I'd hate to see what he'd say about $9 parking and a $45 gate, let alone the prices for everything else today. Paying $9 for the privilege of parking your car in the hot sun all day, so the birds can poop on it, and then having to "hoof it" to the gate is a form of gouging that starts the day off on a bad note.

When installing a ride, the key is to make sure most everyone over 48 inches tall can ride. There is a HUGE level of dissapointment when the biggest, tallest, whatever, is advertised... then the park makes it a point to go on a witch-hunt to deny people a chance to ride on it. In the eyes of the guest, it's the park that blundered here, not the manufacturer, or the lawyers and insurance industry. NOT being able to ride, simply said, is NOT getting full value paid at the gate.

Souvenirs--it seems the quality today, -vs- a few years ago has gone. Give us something that we can take home as a momento of a fun day. If it's made cheap, it won't last. If it's built right, it will last, then it can be sold on e-bay in 20 years...

Great rides, and shows will continue to put Cedar Point ahead of the rest; however, GREAT guest service, EXCELLENT food, and top of the line merchandise, WITHOUT the impression of gouging, will continue to spell "value" in the eyes of the public.

Why did we go back every year? We had fun. Among other things, the total experience of employees having fun, food that tasted better than anything else (Do you remember the home-made salt water taffy?), elaborately decorated attractions and scenery always added up to fun.

It seems that someone, or something has lost some keys to the FUN... They better be finding those keys, and putting them back on the key-ring; otherwise, the car isn't going to keep starting... *** Edited 6/16/2005 11:32:44 AM UTC by BigHkid***

I don't dispute the fact that there have been some negative changes at Cedar Point. What I dispute is who is reponsible for them. Most of the coaster riding issues are items that are not in complete control of Cedar Point.

As for Kinzel being friendly on the midway, of course he is. He isn't going to get nasty with guests. But, he is responsible for some of the bad that has happened over the years just as he should be given credit for some of the good.

Kinzel himself was responsible for the number of years employees went without a Rec center. What do you think that did to employee morale? If people blame Keller for some of the problems the last few years, who do you think put Keller in that position? I'd be willing to bet if you polled a good number of the "middle" managers, Keller would not have been their first choice to take over at CP for a variety of reasons.

I'm not talking about seasonal employees in all this. Of course seasonals enjoy working at Cedar Point and many of them are outstanding employees. But, you can't compare 3 or 4 years working a ride to the careers of some of the "silver tags" who have been with the company for 10, 15, 20 years.

There are certain things that CP used to excel at that couldn't be measured directly by what they added to the bottom line, but indirectly they gave CP the atmosphere that made people happy, resulting in customer satisfaction and driving attendance in a positive way.

Think about the "high-five" sky ride incident where one of the workers (was it Ben?) was written up. The child's parents are not necessarily amusement park fans, but took the child because they wanted to show him a good time. When they see the Sky Ride employee making their child smile and happy by giving the high-five, they are going to feel very good about taking their child to a place that treats him so well and makes him happy. It may have been an expensive, long and tiring day, but they left with a feeling of goodwill toward Cedar Point. It is disturbing that present management thinks that making a child smile at an amusement park is bad behavior.

It is the little things that, when added up, give a trip to Cedar Point added value that makes people want to come back in spite of the cost.

When operators are busting their butts to operate each ride with as much capacity as possible, it makes people feel that the park cares about them having a good time, not just taking their money.

When the Gemini crew used to get the crowd excited about the race, it made the ride so much better and fun. Now, if the crowd isn't big enough, the ride doesn't even race.

The auto-spiels, with the generic sounding "radio DJ voice" are very impersonal and cold. The ride operators got the crowd going and excited about the ride. People had more fun because of this excitement. And, an enthusiastic "sit upright, hold on tight, see you back in a minute and 42 seconds" had much more value in safety since at least people paid attention and placed it in the back of their minds. Now the generic "blah, blah, blah" corporate lawyer geek talk makes people snooze. No one pays attention and just shuts it out. The excitement level in the entire park is somewhat down.

There is a reason that a long time ago Disney called their workers cast members who acted as hosts. Interaction with the park guests is very important. It lets the workers get into their jobs and have fun. It makes the guests think that the company cares about them having a good time.

Also, create an environment where the employees can succeed by getting rid of stupid rules that serve no purpose other than to make their jobs harder.

I've never heard of one Magnum employee getting hit by the train, but I've seen incidents where an attentive employee saw an open seat belt as the train was leaving the station. With the present procedure of standing behind the post in the "v", will that still happen. I doubt it.

Cedar Point needs to get back to their roots and remember that an amusement park is much more than just a collection of rides. It is the entire experience, in providing a fun and excitement filled environment, that people enjoy. Enthusiastic workers, that can interact with guests and do their own spiels, without being afraid of being written up for showing some excitement and fun, goes a long way in creating a good guest experience.

"You can dream, create, design and build the most wonderful place in the world...but it requires people to make the dreams a reality."
I'm finally beginning to get that line.

Yes, that is a Walt Disney quote. Disney builds beautiful parks but what you hear time and again...or at least you did, was how friendly the employees are, how clean the parks are, etc. Those items have nothing to do with the latest, greatest ride.

I think that Cedar Fair could do more to value their employees at all levels. In fact, I know they can. But it takes a concerted effort to do so and not just lip service.

Nobody can be blamed for all the changes. I beleive they were all made for the 100% best of changes. I feel as though the better is being realized.

Who is responsible for negative side of things? It's ultimatly up to the leadership to put the changes into good working order not management. I have been in leadership at the park and it is sometimes hard to smooth in changes. Honestly, after some practice it is easy to do. Honestly there are no drastic changes, just minor variants on the old.

So the magnum hosts stand in a different places. There might be some concern, but the operator at the controls does have the power not to send the train if he/she feels it is not safe for at least one passenger. Ohio will protect that operator for doing so. They are also supposed to be watching every train as it leaves the station....

I was Team Leader at Witches' Wheel a couple years ago. I had my crew precount guests into the bullpen. As far as I know it should still be possible today. There are two gates now instead of a chain and a gate. Also, they rerouted the exit so now the load/exit host stands right there. I had my crew walk around lock the doors, meet, then continue walking around hitting the chains and yanking the doors. We had a new cycle going between 1:15 seconds to 2 minutes after the prior cycle almost every time. Thank you to whoever complimented on that. Honestly the Team Leader just needs to encourage the crew.

It's the same concept at Max Air. It looks to me the hosts check their seats and continue rechecking until they meet again. Extremely fast and effective if you ask me. I have never complained of waiting too long for Max Air. In fact I hope they never stop double checking at Max Air. Honestly, if I was the operator at the controls, I wouldn't care what the computer said. It may be 99% correct, but that 1% error could always happen. Ask yourself, when was the last time my computer crashed or presented me with an error. If your using Windows probably within the last 15 minutes. So, be happy that humans are checking a 3rd time to make sure everything is locked and secure. 1st computer, 2nd the operators 1st check, 3rd the operators double check.

All the leadership needs to do on Gemini is encourage their operators to pick up pace. I mean how hard is it to check a Bright orange seat belt and tug a lapbar.... It sounds to me the main complaint there is the speed of the hosts walking back to their position.

Personally, I think this season is going superiorly great. I give a big round of applause and standing ovation to the Management and leadership for trying their hardest. I would encourage the continued use of proactive safety instead of reactive safety.

Efficiency may be down, but give me the slower lines for the safest ride. Changes may be in place but give me them if it means I will be safer or my children will be safer. I know it will all fall into place as it does every season before the true busiest time and show why Cedar Point is the Best in the World. We'll all be giving a round of applause at the end of October as we always do.

Remember things will always change for the better. Think in 20 years we'll all be older and praising how perfect TTD runs and the new Super Dooper Looper 3000 with new square wheel technology is awful because it always stops... Then 20 years later Super Dooper Looper 3000 will run perfect retrofitted with round wheels, and a new ride will have the bad mark.

Moral of story, every bad there is has a light at the end of the tunnel. Stick through it and you'll see the light.

That'll be a fun thread when CP installs a coaster with square wheels.

I guess now we know why low standards are OK. In one breath you say it's OK for only one Magnum operator to have a clear view of departing seat belts then say you hope they continue having the double check on maXair.

Low standards are not ok. I'm not saying it's up to one operator. It is indeed up to all the host to make sure the train leaves safely. I was making the point that the person who says clear has to be fully sure the train is safe. If there is any doubt in their mind. They should not push that button for any reason. Therefore if it is hard for them to visually see the thumbs. The operator at the controls should not push the button. They should communicate that politly over the PA possibly by repeating "Ready Ready"

The low standard is blaming those who are not at a button. If a person at a button has a doubt, don't push it. end of story.
*** Edited 6/16/2005 9:12:12 PM UTC by MonsterMan***

If the MonsterMan's sentiment is shared by management then I fear for the future of things, let alone the here and now.

I am 5'10" and I was barely tall enough to get a clear view of the first car, making it troublesome to see the first car's seat belts before clearing the train. This was fine since there were two ride hosts on either side that could watch that car while the train is being cleared. Now that the ride ops on the platfrom are no longer standing there, how do you expect that the employee in controls to be certain that the first car is indeed clear if they can't see the seat belts, especially if they are shorter than I am?

This is the kind of thing I meant when I was talking about practicality when applying changes to operating procedures.

*** Edited 6/16/2005 9:23:14 PM UTC by CP_bound***

...And since we're back to talking about Magnum...

That's exactly what I have been complaining about for two years now...and I am not/have never been a ride operator.

(you crew types can correct me, but...) Before the gates were installed, the final authority for sending the train rested with the co-dispatch operator, standing at Unload-1. I've stood in that location, and I can tell you with some certainty that from that location, the entire train is visible, and before they cut the rails this year, every crew station was visible (because there simply wasn't any room for anybody to be standing behind a post). If the train was ready to go, the signal was given and the train went.

The new setup with the gates puts the co-dispatch authority in the hands of a person who CANNOT SEE A DAMNED THING. The co-dispatch operator at Load-6 can't see into the doghouse, can't see any of the operators on the load side, and can't see half the operators on the unload side. How in the hell is this person supposed to make an informed decision to inform the controls operator that the train is ready to go? Remember, the controls operator probably can't see the train over the console, and besides, isn't watching the platform operations anyway because he's watching the train on the lift. Neither the controls operator nor the co-dispatch operator can easily tell whether or not the train is ready and all the operators are clear. This year, putting the load side operators behind the posts makes matters even worse, as now NOBODY can see all of the operators to make sure that everybody is not only clear of the train, but agrees that the train is ready to go.

Now would somebody like to explain to me how any of this is supposed to improve the safety of ride operations? Yes, this season's changes might reduce risk exposure to employees, but at what cost to the safety of the customers? And it doesn't really improve employee safety either, it just changes the risks those employees are exposed to.

Folks, this is the crux of the problem. These things are done for good and logical reasons, but they have consequences, consequences that are not always forseen, and which often have a negative effect. In an effort to improve safety, this is an area where the park has, in my opinion, extended well past the point of diminishing returns, to the degree that the new precautions may well have a negative effect. And I KNOW that isn't what they had in mind.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

As I have not been on Magnum yet this year, I based my opinion on years past. But Dave's post there makes a lot of sense to me.

I no longer work at the park so I made further opinions on my years prior with the park. my opinions in no way reflect the managment team as I am no longer working on rides. So my opinions are in no way reflections of managment and shouldn't be taken as so. So don't worry CP_bound.

Further, I agree with Daves post as it included details I had not yet read.
*** Edited 6/16/2005 10:58:53 PM UTC by MonsterMan***

The park had a vision years ago that you agreed with.

That vision has obviously changed. Is what you value as important as what the GP values? I dunno about that one.

MrScott

What Dave said is right on the money.

In 2001 and before, there were no airgates, no dispatch enable button, and the order of clears went from back to front (ie person in back of you had to be clear before you) with the final signal to send the train being two knocks from the unload 1 host to the control host. It was a simple, non-technical system that worked great. The ride was a dream to run - even with the poor sightlines in the station.

In 2002, they added the airgates and the dispatch enable button. They went wrong in two areas. First, they put straight railings for the front three cars to replace the diagonal ones that were there previously. This causes confusion as people waiting for the front row block off rows two and three. Second, they installed the dispatch enable button behind a pillar at the very back of the station. Clears now went from front to back, with the final signal to send the train being a high clear from the unload 2 host which ideally should be standing between cars 3 and 4 when giving the high clear so that he may watch the back three cars as they go out. From the control booth on Magnum, you can only see car 1 and about half of car 2 - if you're tall enough. Sure you can watch them all as they go out, but when cars 5 and 6 get up to you, they are moving rather quickly and it is too late to stop the train anyway. The point is that control operator has to rely first on the ordered clears and the high clear to know it's okay to send the train and second on the hosts on the platform to be watching the train as it goes out.

While the mounting of the dispatch enable at the very back of the train meant that one less person could watch the train as it went out, the hosts could still see eachother's clears easy enough. There was also 4 people watching the train go out - two standing in front of car one, one standing between cars 3 and 4 on the unload side, and another standing between cars 2 and 3 on the load side. Until this year.

This year, rather than having the load hosts stand in front of or right beside the pillars, they are forced to stand in "V" shaped cutouts BEHIND the pillars and have no view of the exiting train and limited view of eachothers' clears. Not only this, there is no one at the front of the train on either load or unload since they are now standing behind car 1. Car 1 leaves the station without hosts able to watch for open seatbelts, etc.

Basically, they've protected hosts from getting "high fived" or in the worst case which has never happened, being grabbed and dragged along the platform. But, they have done this at the expense of guest safety and the ease of operating the ride. Not to mention that by not allowing hosts to leave their V's, they can't pair up riders, look for small kids, look for loose articles, or talk to guests on the platform. So that's like one step forward and five backwards. *** Edited 6/17/2005 1:02:59 AM UTC by MDOmnis***