Lack of innovation recently?

But again, to the extent that the only redeeming feature of the movie is surprise, there would be no reason to watch it again. Same would be true with a coaster that had only the element of surprise. But just like with many movies which have a lot more than just an element of surprise to them, there is typically little of a surprise element to coasters that can be spoiled by riding it once. For many coasters, you can see the entire ride before you ride it. So there really isn't much of an element of surprise. But its the feeling of falling down that first hill, and going upside down and twisting and turning and riding up and down hills and airtime that bring most people to coasters. None of those elements/reasons have surprise as a factor. So that is why you can watch a good movie multiple times and ride a good coaster over and over.

Jeff,

I wouldn't say the park sucks or is stale. I still have a great time everytime I go. I would say that I've been unexcited about this Intamin funk CP has been in. The last few Intamin additions beyond MF have been less than exciting for me. Granted they've been fun rides, but I don't get that "Man I have to ride that to see what that's like" anticipation anymore. Haven't done Maverick yet, but I feel, because nothing about it is that new, once you've seen the POV, you've pretty much been on it. In fact, the only part of it that I felt curious about what it would be like was the heartline roll that no longer exists. And I'll be happy to retract this statement if I find that not to be the case if/when I go this year.

Djdaemon/Gobucks89,

I could see there being replay value in Gemini's headchopper. Even though you know it's coming and it's perfectly safe to extend your arms as high as possible, you can get enjoyment by how the element is executed. Just how close does it seem? What are some of the factors that make the effect so good? Sometimes just taking in good work is enjoyable. Hate to sound like I'm blowing the scope of this discussion out of proportion, but you could take in The Mona Lisa for hours, even though we all pretty much know what it looks like.

So you have an opinion on a lack of innovation and you haven't even been on Maverick yet? Why did you even start this thread?

I have not yet been on Maverick either but I actually think it does offer a reason to ride it. I think it is a departure from the taller/faster concept that I look forward to riding (but when the lines die down).

I also think the contrast between your view of having seen the POV for Maverick and therefore pretty much being on it and your view of the Gemini head chop to be interesting. lol

^Your post at the top of the page makes no sense. You basically proved yourself wrong with that one post.

Last year, I went on a class trip to MiA. I rode Shivering Timbers 12 times. I learned almost every inch of that ride, but did I stop riding it, NO! Why did I keep riding it? Because I like the ride. The airtime, the trick track, the final helix. It's the same with a movie, you watch it again because you like it! Same can be said with Gemini. I ride it again for the airtime, the head chopper, and the race. No race is the same if you haven't figured it out. You can make it even more fun by trying to slap hands with the other train!

I agree with Jeff about the topic. If you haven't ridden Maverick yet, you have no reason to start this topic, let alone argue in it. This is one of the only rides at CP where the lift doesn't have moving parts, and neither does the launch. How much more reliable and innovative can you get? I think we should stop arguing over this stupid Gemini crap and get back on arguing about how much variety in terms of ride types CP has. Halltd pointed out a lot of ride types that CP doesn't have.

Dude -- You state that I am wrong and then you go on and say essentially the same thing I said in the post you said was wrong. So are you wrong too?

I don't think you need to have ridden something to comment on the design. If I build a freefall ride like Demon Drop except make it 50ft taller, don't you think you could reasonably speak to the originality of the design without riding it? I think riding it will, of course, give me more insight, but I don't think it's a prerequisite to the statement I made about Maverick.

Besides, I would venture to say that 80% of the comments in this forum made about rides not at CP are from people who haven't ridden them.

GoBucks89,

As they're written, I can see how the statements seem contradictory but the idea I'm trying to express isn't.

The Maverick/POV comment speaks to the assesment that most of the elements and premise of Maverick are not original (ie, quick turns, launch, airtime, etc). This comment speaks the originality and innovation of Maverick, not necessarily the enjoyment of the ride. The stand-up coaster was a new sensation offering an original experience but I don't really like 'em too much because I get more leg pain than most people.

The Gemini discussion was along the grounds of even though I know what's going to happen, I can still appreciate what's happening. Not directly contradictory to the Maverick statement.

Convoluted reasoning aside, I never said that I wouldn't enjoy riding Maverick, I'm sure I will. I just think that given that I've been on similar concepts and I've seen the POV, I have reasonable idea of what to expect. And I've gladly offered to retract that if it turns out not to be the case.

What more do you want from Maverick? Honestly I can't find any coaster other then Mav that has a LSM lift, LSM launch, a layout that hugs the ground and throws some inversions in there.

Where does that exists other then Maverick? I am almost positive that it is quite unique and innovative. If that isn't enough then you are obviously impossible to please.

Please if I am wrong send me the link to a coaster like it.

I believe the closest out there with an LSM lift, LSM launch and inversion is California Screamin'. It doesn't go as fast or have the tight turns, but it's fun!

GoBucks89 said:
Dude -- You state that I am wrong and then you go on and say essentially the same thing I said in the post you said was wrong. So are you wrong too?

Everything you argued previously to that post was opposite of what is in that post at the top of the page. So I am basically asking why you changed your oppinion in one post?

Rockdown2G; your not talking about innovation anymore. Your talking about Maverick's layout The layout isn't the innovative part. The innovative part of Maverick is that the only moving parts are the tire drives and a couple brake fins. That makes an unbelieveably reliable ride(especially for Intamin). Halltd is right. California Screamin is the only other roller coaster with an LSM lift and launch. So by what you said in your last paragraph of your last post, you are saying that you have been on California Screamin.

rollerdude said:

GoBucks89 said:
Dude -- You state that I am wrong and then you go on and say essentially the same thing I said in the post you said was wrong. So are you wrong too?

Everything you argued previously to that post was opposite of what is in that post at the top of the page. So I am basically asking why you changed your oppinion in one post?

Please point to anything that I said which was inconsistent much less everything.

OK, I think this whole thread and discussion is going around in circles, due to a lack of clarity with RockDown2G's first post.

In my opinion, this thread's title should have been "Why doesn't CP have a 4 D yet?"

Within your first post of this page, Rock said "I would say that I've been unexcited about this Intamin funk CP has been in. The last few Intamin additions beyond MF have been less than exciting for me. Granted they've been fun rides, but I don't get that "Man I have to ride that to see what that's like" anticipation anymore"

OK, since MF, CP has installed 3 Intamin's WT, TTD, and now Maverick - am I suppose to believe those rides were not innovative? Do I have to list ALL of the firsts, all three introduced? You're just not "excited" with them and that's your opinion (fine). But let's call a spade a spade - ALL 3 were VERY innovative! You just don't like Intamin (funk?), or would prefer CP use another manufacturer - S&S possibly?

Your logic was flawed from your very FIRST post, claiming Iron Dragon, Raptor, and Mantis are "cutting edge". All three of those rides are just bigger and improved versions of pre-existing proven concepts, just like your example within your second post on this page using a 50 foot taller version of Demon Drop. Again, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a better version of X at CP, and I wish S&S would hurry up and fix the problems with the concept. Until they do, I am thrilled CP has waited, and IS working with Intamin, adding innovative, unique rides with each installation. I am always thrilled with TTD even after a dozen rides or so. How many parks can you visit and experience a ride that goes over 120 MPH?

From watching a recent coaster show with a tour of a CP office, we saw the schematic for an Intamin "Ball coaster" on the wall. Basically a Kirnu clone, thought a bigger version could be in the works. Who knows?

In my opinion, CP is THE MOST innovative park on the planet, they just take a cautious approach minimizing risk. Sometimes it has worked (MF and Maverick), and sometimes it doesn't, or at least not as well as they expected (TTD and WT).

I have not riden "X", "Furius Baco", or "Kirnu" yet, but clearly this innovatice concept of sitting beside the track, will be the next "big" innovation. And I for one CAN NOT wait! But I have confidence, CP will jump on board when they feel they can install a reliable fun ride, with the vibration problems having been solved.

We now have two (2) manufacturers working on the innovative concept of sitting beside the track. Patience, we will see it at CP when it's ready, realable, and as problem free as possible, in my opinion.

I think you have to wait until you see what they do with the next coaster. Maverick is very different from other coasters in the park. The build it taller/faster race appears to be over at least in terms of trying to build successive coasters that are the tallest/fastest at the time. I would expect CP to be somewhat more cautious after Dragster and what happened with X. But we shall see.

I agree, it's always wait and see, while Maverick is a GREAT addition to CP's lineup of rides, no doubt. I do think it's a pretty safe bet though, that an Intamin ball coaster will be added, given the coaster show, and Demon Drop is for sale. A ball coaster would fit perfectly in that space, while giving CP another inovative ride and it's 18th coaster.

It looks like we are all in the same boat now, but I still have a feeling that we are gonna see a GCI or TGG woodie/hybrid added somewhere in the park. Actually, I think that the next installment will be another flatride, possibly a topple tower where the aquatic stadium is now.

^ Really? You think a topple tower after the recent malfuntion? My money is on a ball coaster (#18) for next year, followed by a flat or dark ride. A super soaker would also be a great addition as #19. Then when Mr. Kinzel retires, #20 will be his legacy coaster!

^That's where CP can get innovative. They could work with Huss to create a 2nd generation topple tower, one that's more reliable. Even if CP doesn't build a topple tower, I think that they will get some form of new flatride before a new coaster. I also wouldn't mind seeing a skyswat with better capacity. It may end up being a bad idea with the load time for Skyhawk. We can only guess though.

Tom,

Well, no. Not really. The danger in using X as the example was, of course, having people misconstrue my point. X just happened to be the most recent example, so I spoke to it.

My point was that CP has been behind the times with the newest coaster-type concepts. Period. Originally I spoke to some examples of where I thought CP had done a better job at keeping up in the past (ie Iron Dragon, Mantis, etc.) Well those examples may not have been as good as I thought, even though I've never claimed CP as the originator of new concepts.

From my opinion, CP had been able to keep up with the new ride types that were the talk. Inverted, Suspended, Standup, Racing, etc. I don't believe that is the case anymore. Where have they been on dueling, floorless, 4D, flying, spinning, etc? I originally brought up the topic because as I have been making my way around the country to experience some of these new concepts. I tend to expect them to be lame or gimmicky since CP hasn't entertained them, but some are actually quite good.

Yes MF, WT, TTD, and Mav have all had innovations to ride technology (elevator lift, LSM launch lift, hydraulic launch, etc) but generally speaking I don't think there's too much innovation in the overall ride concepts. Sorry.

And since you mentioned it, I like Intamin rides but I feel like CP has been sacrificing the ability to stay on the wave of new ride concepts because they're continually playing to Intamin's abilities.

And for heaven's sake, my original point doesn't make any sort of value judgement on any of CP's rides. So Maverick (or any other ride at CP) being a good/bad ride really has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

*** Edited 7/24/2007 12:19:53 AM UTC by RockDown2G***

^I see your point. I think that you just worded the topic title and some of your posts wrong.

Even though Intamin recently created one of CP's greatest rides in it's history, I think the Intamin era is over. Maverick may be one of the most reliable Intamin has ever built, I think that CP will try some other concepts next. I doubt we will see a 4D, unless it is a ball coaster, but I can see a flyer, a floorless dive machine, and a spinner all at CP.