Lack of innovation recently?

I guess I'll start this post with some background on me. I'm a midwest native (Detroit) now living in Los Angeles. I always have and do visit CP at least once a year.

I recently went to SFMM and got a chance to ride some of their more popular rides including Goliath (out-and-back), X (4th dimension), and Tatsu (Flying). Being a long time CP visitor, I thought I was prepared for the ultimate in coaster thrills, but I was mistaken.

All three of these coasters impressed me but for the sake of keeping the discussion contained I'll keep it to just X. With this ride being almost 7 years old now, I was sure that since CP (nor anyone else for that matter) went on board with this concept that it must be lame or gimmicky. I couldn't have been more wrong. With a mild exception, I felt like the concept was brilliantly executed into a new and exciting Pandora's Box of new potential for the industry. The first drop alone has so many cool elements to it that it was easily put as my favorite ride.

Which brings me to my point (finally). Where is CP on this and other new coaster concepts? Sure they've gone fast and tall lately, but that's always been the case. Although I'm no historian, in the past CP, although not usually the first to demonstrate, had always been on the cutting edge of new coaster concepts. Suspended (Iron Dragon), inverted (Raptor), standing (Mantis), etc. Lack of a 4-D, flying, etc coasters has led me to wonder if things have changed. It pains me to see so many new concepts coming about and CP not making them overall great experiences by eliminating the capactity/interval and upkeep debauchery of Six Flags. Thoughts?

My thought is that both the flying coaster and X are not going anywhere. Flying coasters, to many enthusiasts, are very dull, forceless coasters. And X is such a nightmare it already bankrupted one company. Its probably the only coaster with a track record worse than TTD.

The deal with CP is that usually, they use a tried and tested technology and push it to its limits. That's the history of CP from my persepctive. Neitehr 4-d or flying coasters will ever be put on the island any time soon.

The direction they are headed can be seen in Maverick...

In the past 10 years Cedar Point has added:

Power Tower
Chaos
Woodstock Express
Millennium Force
Wicked Twister
Dragster
maXair
Skyhawk
Maverick

I would say that is an impressive list. 2004 was the only year they didn't add any new rides. I would say that all of those additions were great, unique ones.

I agree with you RockDown. I was expecting to HATE X because so many people have said it sucked. But, I happened to love it. It was the most disorienting and unique coaster I've been on. Plus, I'm not one to like rough coasters at ALL. But, I didn't think X was rough. So, maybe I just lucked out. But, in terms of re-ridability, X has it down. You could ride that thing thirty times and still not know exactly where you're going. :) But, I think that coaster was a tad ahead of it's time. I'm actually surprised they attempted a second one. Since it's so unreliable, I doubt we'll see one of those at CP anytime soon.

I am a little confused on the whole lack of a flyer at Cedar Point. They say they don't want to go for the height or speed record anymore and they want to put in rides that more of the "family" can enjoy. Even though the enthusiast circle tends to think flyers are dull, the general public loves them.

The flyer is a pretty proven coaster up to this point. They rarely break down anymore - especially when compared to rocket coasters. I'm sure CP could put in a flyer that's unique and well loved by everyone. I really don't think every coaster in the world has to pull 4 Gs to be a good coaster.

Air and Tatsu are pretty awesome coasters as far as I'm concerned. Air is such a zen coaster experience and truly exhibits what it's like to fly. Tatsu is amazing because of the location perched on top of the mountain at SFMM.

I would love to see CP take on the challenge of making the best (not biggest) flyer.

X is a P.O.S. and I'm glad we don't have one similar to it.

I hate that damn ride. Despise it, if you will.

BTW, DK said it best when he said flyers are uncomfortable, and they won't be building one any time soon.

Air is 900% more comfortable than Mean Streak. :) Actually, because it doesn't have a loop like all the other flyers, it's SOOTHINGLY comfortable. Maybe DK needs to take a trek over the pond to Staffordshire? :)

No way! Cedar Point has been pretty close to the front lines with new technology. When MF was built the elevator lift was a fairly new concept. And I don't think that there is anything like Maverick in the world. The LSM lift hill and lanuch. I could't have dreamed of seeing Top Thrill Dragster in the sky in 2002. Yet it's there. And Skyhawk is kinda a new concept also. I think Cedar point has done a good job putting in new rides. They are fairly new concepts that have been tried. But if you go totally new you are bound to have some problems like X.

Yeah because all the coasters out there are using LSM's for lift systems. If anything they are the most innovative.

I do however give SFMM alot of credit, they have quite a line up.

I'm a bit thrown off by this thread. CP cant introduce EVERY new technology out there. We get a new world-class coaster every couple years.

What more do you want, exactly?

Let's do the math here. X is down more than it's up. The new copy of it in Japan has been, by all American accounts, just as rough and unreliable. Why the hell would CP want to build one of those?

Why do we need a Goliath when we have Magnum and Millennium Force? Why do we need Tatsu when the percentage of guests that ride it is so small? And frankly, what has any of these rides done for Six Flags? Up until recently they wanted to sell the park!

I don't know about lacking innovation. Lacking inspiration might be more accurate (MF, WT, TTD all have rather uninspired layouts).

But I'd say Maverick is about the best decision they've made in years. The ride just has a little bit of everything and I'd take it over just about anything else CP could have built. I really think that ride should go a long way to help restore CP's reputation. I just hope they don't jack up food prices so high and cut so many operational corners that such a great ride is overshadowed in people's minds.

If you don't think Maverick, TTD, MF, WT, and many other rides at CP aren't "innovative", then you either have really strict standards or you just need a dictionary.

WT isn't innovative. They made it taller and twisted both spikes. Otherwise it's the same as all the other LIM impulse coasters.

I dont think CP lacks innovation at all.

As far as flyers being "forceless rides", I agree that a lot of the flying part really is dull. However, I rode Superman Ultimate Flight at SFGreat America, and the pretzel loop is easily the most intense inversion I've ever been on. There are so many G's at the bottom of the loop. Absolutely insane. But after that, the ride is a piece of garbage :P

Nonetheless I agree that Maverick is a fantastic investment and is without a doubt innovative.

I don't find flying coasters uncomfortable or boring. Why does every coaster have to have air time or great forces? The Beast has little to no air time and it is a great coaster by many people's standards. I think some enthusiasts are just hard to please. Not to mention, every time I've seen lines for flying coasters, they are fairly long. Maybe they don't command the waits like MF, but not every coaster will do that.

A long wait doesn't mean a good coaster. It can mean low throughput as well.

halltd said:
Air is 900% more comfortable than Mean Streak.

Smiley face or not, that was bad. Wooden coaster vs. B&M steel. The humor is absolutely killing me. I mean, was that at all necessary? Sure Mean Streak is notoriously rough, but why oh why take stupid pot shots at it like this?

Besides, the discomfort with flying coasters comes from the way you're strapped in, sort of like a stand-up. Therefore, a better comparison would be Air vs. Mantis. It would have made 900% more sense then your "Air/Mean Streak" crap.
*** Edited 7/17/2007 4:32:51 PM UTC by ramboozle***

Cedar Point has been a consistent leader in innovation for decades now. That being said, as much as I love TTD, WT, and Maverick, it seems like the park is close to getting saturated with launch coasters. Maybe the next coaster ought to be . . . well, something else.

Without having ridden X or any flyer, they both appear that they would be unique and provide different experiences.

I'm curious as to why X has so much down time? I'm guessing it must be related to the trains as its a conventional lift chain and still just a 4 rail track. (No LIMs, LSMs etc)

X appears be pretty hefty and looks to have a large footprint, so even if a smoother layout was devised, it might be a hard fit at CP anyways.
(Unless you do a SFMM technique and go over the parking lot!)

Too bad CP is NOT leading the way in any innovations toward posted ride queue times throughout the park, Q-bots, and food quality!! Though, Chik-fil-a was an upgrade....