Lack of innovation recently?

Reading comprehension is a lost art. After having stated that I believe Gemini is essentially a one trick pony (thereby demonstrating that I know how to call something a one trick pony (or essentially one), you would think that if I believed that MF and/or Magnum were one trick ponies, that I simply would have stated as much. And having not done so, one would think people would understand that I do not view MF and Magnum as one trick ponies. And then when two people play interpreter and read something into my post that I never stated and that was actually inconsistent with my post, I correct them but that isn't good enough either. Whatever.

The head choppers are the best elements of Gemini? Really? After the first time you ride the ride, how can they be of any interest at all?

And its nice to see that apparently on this site, if you express an opinion thats different than other people, you have your head up your butt. Again, whatever.

Jeff said:
So where are the examples of ride concepts that CP doesn't currently have?

Here are some that I can think of off the top of my head from recent trips or rides I've seen and thought looked cool. I'm positive it's not an exhaustive list:

Coasters:
Flyer
Motorbike
Dive Machine
AquaTrax/Water Coaster (Intamin, Mack)
4th Dimension
Pipeline
Floorless
Euro-Fighter
Spinner (Mack, Reverchon, Maurer Sohne)
Duelling

Flats:
Top Spin
Topple Tower
Fly Away
Breakdance
Sky Swatter
Non-drenching Log Flume :)
Dark Ride
Double Inverter
Disk'O
Air Jumper

Granted, I wouldn't want some of these rides at CP. But, the question was what ride concepts are missing from CP. So, there's a quick list.

I don't really think it matters if the general public knows rides exists. You'd think it would be better if you had a ride people weren't familiar with. That way they'd think it was unique to your park. But, with that said, I'm sure there are plenty of people that at least know what flyers and dive machines are. They've been all over the mainstream news recently. BGE and KI are close enough to Cedar Point for awareness to be there by non enthusiasts. Also, if their guests have ever been to a Disney park (which I'm sure a lot of them have), they'd also know what a non-soaking flume ride and dark ride are.

I don't think anyone is saying Cedar Point sucks because they don't have a large enough variety of rides. I certainly am not saying that. Are there a couple I wish they'd put in over the next however many years? Sure. But, is it still amazingly fun when you go there? Yip. *** Edited 7/19/2007 10:15:33 PM UTC by halltd***

Jeff,

I couldn't tell you what the GP knows or doesn't know about CP's ride collection. I don't have any insight into the demographics of CP guests that i could intelligently speak to. I do, however, know that when bring non-locals to CP, they give CP some credit but go on-and-on about the "gimmick coasters" at their local parks. The flyers, the 4-ds, the dueling, the spinning, the floorless, etc. that CP just doesn't have. Enthusiasts like us can call them gimmicks all we want but I think these types of rides really stick out to most GP-type people I talk to.

GoBucks89,

Yes. I'm aware of the stand-up gap. I guess for my purposes I didn't really count that. The gap is probably bigger, but from what I've seen, the early stand-up coasters were not quite CP caliber. At least if the one at KI was anything like the one at Canada's Wonderland.

CP followed suit on the standup almost immediately after B&M released the second generation, which in my opinion was much more suitable for a park like CP.

And i know I'm going to take a drumming for this one but my favorite part of Gemini is when the trains split in opposing helixes. :)

Heym everyone has different tastes when it comes to coasters. To me, there are really only 3 elements of Gemini that are worth noting. The first hill, the helix at the end of the ride and the head chopper on the second trip away from the side with the station. And the head chopper is only interesting the first time you ride the ride. Once you know its there, I do not see any interest in it (other than watching people who put their hands down or duck when they see it). So its really just the first hill and the helix. That helix has never been too interesting to me but everyone is different.

And as long as you understand that if you don't agree with the powers that be around here, you have your head up your butt and that your posts mean what they say they mean, you are fine. :)

GoBucks89 said:
Reading comprehension is a lost art.

I've heard that one before.

RockDown2G said:
I couldn't tell you what the GP knows or doesn't know about CP's ride collection. I don't have any insight into the demographics of CP guests that i could intelligently speak to. I do, however, know that when bring non-locals to CP...

So the park should build rides to satisfy some small minority just so they can say something different?

The point I was trying to make is that it doesn't matter what you think is "innovative" if people dig what's already there. This is not Olympic synchronized swimming; you don't get points for doing something new. To suggest they aren't innovating is to suggest that the park is getting stale. And frankly, if you find the park boring, well, you suck. :) Maybe not suck, but you really are too inhibited and taken in by the enthusiass culture to have a good time.

GoBucks89 said:
After the first time you ride the ride, how can they be of any interest at all?

The same way any element on a coaster remains interesting after the first time?

Odd... I myself jst got back from a trip out West and I rode Tatsu. It was the only thing on my list that was a must ride.

I don't care about ride percentages, or really any of that crap. Tatsu is now my second favorite ride period. #1 MF, #2 Tatsu, #3 Magnum. It is damn hard to bump Maggie down to third, but it is that awesome.

Walt said:

GoBucks89 said:
After the first time you ride the ride, how can they be of any interest at all?

The same way any element on a coaster remains interesting after the first time?

To a degree that is true with every element of a coaster or any ride for that matter. But for any element where surprise is the primary cause for the thrill, I don't see how that element can be of interest the next time around.

Look at the first hill on any ride and the head chop on the Gemini. You know the first hill is coming (other than for a ride like the Beast where you know its coming but you can't see it so there is some element of surprise as to what it will be like). So there is no element of surprise to the first hill. Yet its in interesting element ride after ride.

The Gemini head chop is not something you can see while looking at the ride. You need to ride it to even know its there. So its a surprise to the rider. But the only thrill it provides (at least to me) was in not knowing its there. Once you know its there, what thrill is it? And to the extent someone finds there to be a thrill with the head chop on the 10th ride, what exactly is that thrill?

Whereas the first hill of a coaster is interesting ride after ride because of the feelling it provides not because of it being a surprise.

Have you ever watched a movie more than once? If so, why? You've already seen it, thus no surprises.

I see the point you're trying to make, but its just not accurate and mostly irrelevant, I feel.

I love Gemini's head chop every time I ride. Mainly for what someone said by watching other people freak out. But, I also love the "uncertainty" that my hands might get knocked off if I leave them up. Of course I KNOW I'm safe, but there's this TINY part of fear each and every time which makes it fun none the less.

dj -- Thanks for providing another example that helps show my point. A movie is in many ways like a roller coaster. If the only redeeming merit the movie has is surprise, then I agree, there really is no reason to watch it again. But if its a comedy, a good story or there is good acting or something else that draws you in besides an element of surprise which is gone after you watch the movie once, then there can be a reason to watch it again.

^^ - that's the same for me, even though I've ridden it probably more than 75 times. I know its there. I know I'm safe. I know its not a surprise. And still my hands come down that little bit as I pass underneath it, just to be safe.

And DJ, the movie example is pretty bad. There's a reason I haven't watched The Sixth Sense since seeing it in theaters.

Movies have a bazillion other parts to them which make watching them over and over again good (sometimes). There's foreshadowing, lots of background information, character development you may have missed the first time around, etc... It's like watching LOST! over and over again. There's no way you could absorb all the intricacies of the plot the first time around.

I guess you could say a tiny part of that applies to coasters too. There's a lot that goes into the experience of the coaster. Weather, trims, time of day, age of the coaster, smells, other riders in the train, etc... So, each time you ride a coaster, it's not exactly the same. That's why people keep going back year after year.

Oh jeez...

^^ John, there's a reason I've stopped riding MS, too. :)

The point is that if riding a coaster/ride/whatever once were all it took to 'ruin' a coaster, then CP and every other park out there simply wouldn't exist. Stop focusing on the inaccuracies of the comparison, and focus on the point.

dj -- No one ever said that one ride on a coaster would ruin it. So why is it your point to respond to a point no one else made?

So people like the Gemini head chop because there is some uncertainty there about something happening that they know will never happen? At some point, do you think you will ever lose that feeling?

And I suspect that your hands cannot get within at least 2 feet of touching anything at that point of the ride. You can probably get closer to touching the side of the ride at that point that you can that overhead beam.

I give up - I'd rather argue with my 3 year old nephew, though I can't imagine it being that much different.

Here is my problem with what your saying GoBucks89.

You have probably been to the park oh I dunno........ a gazillion times, as I'm sure many people on this site have. But for someone like me (Who LOVES CP) but only gets to go maybe once or twice a year and maybe get into the park maybe 3 times while I'm up there, the surprise factor is almost always there. I don't know how many times I've ridden Gemini (as per your example) and said "Oh crap I forgot that was there". I think for the people who don't get to the park very often this would also be the case. (Well maybe other than you)

tc -- Sounds like you get to CP more often than I do. I have been there once this year and went twice last year. My family went one time per year when I was growing up. I think there were 2 years before I hit college where I went twice because I went with my class at school. And there was a stretch of about 7 years or so during which I either didn't go to CP because of young kids or didn't ride any of the big rides because of time spent on smaller rides with young kids. So all in all, I have been to CP certainly less than 75 times in my lifetime and I suspect less than 50 times.

But I would agree that to the extent the head chop on Gemini is a surprise to you (either because its your first time ever riding it or you don't remember its there because its been a while since you rode it or for some other reason) then the ride element has some interest. And to the extent that is the case, the head chop can have interest beyond that first ride.

Maybe I have a better memory of Gemini because I remember riding 15 times in one visit with my class when it was the big ride in the park. So maybe that's why when I rode it a couple years ago for the first time in at least 10 years, the head chop didn't surprise me.

And it was also at about that time many years ago that I rode the Gemini with my older brother who was riding with a stuffed animal that was 24" to 30" long. He stood up as much as he could with the restraint system, held on to the end of the stuffed animal and reached it up as high as he could going under the head chop and the stuffed animal never hit anything. The top of the stuffed animal was at least 2 to 3 feet above where his raised hands would ever have been and he still hit nothing. Thats one of the reasons why I view any uncertainty of whether you hand will hit on the head chop as being certainly not.

And I still stand by my view that there is a difference between the surprise element of the head chop and any other element in a coaster which was in response to Walt's question about something I said yesterday.

I like the Geminii headchoppers every time I ride. I have no reason why other than "I just do".

I think the point dj was getting at was referring to the movie reference. That and the non-surprising coaster elements. He was saying that since movies would be spoiled after one viewing, then a coaster would be ruined after one ride considering there would be zero surprises after one ride. I could be wrong... I have before and I will be again.