Kinzel: "People have to eat"

BlueStreak64 said:

Don't even get me started on the issue of basketballs...I want to pop every single one of them I see, and that's a lot of them. Don't give them away inflated, or at all!

haha! Everytime we are at CP my sis says the same thing. Her words exactly: "I swear, the next basketball I see I am going to pop!!"

One day we were on Gemini and there was a group of kids with the basketballs. They tryed taking them on the coaster. When the Ride Op came around to check the lap bars, she told them that they had to put them in the bins. Not one of the kids got out of their seats.

They all threw the basketballs from their seats into the bins. All of the basketballs made it, and it was pretty cool. But if one of them would have hit my head, it would have really pissed me off.

Lord Gonchar said:
Here's the exact quote from Will:

"Here’s the most amazing piece of information I have about our change to free unlimited soft drinks. Our food per-cap now exceeds what it was in 1999 when we last sold soft drinks. The 2006 per-cap is 20 per cent higher than our per-cap in 1999."

For the record, I dug up the info and inflation over the same period (I used June 1999 to June 2006) was a hair over 22%.

Am I totally misinterpreting the info or is that less than impressive?

Actually, that's the first time anyone has found the quote, so that's helpful. But consider the rest of the equation: The money being spent on the food itself is higher, with the soda money going toward food now. The soda is more than paid for on the gate increase of four bucks or whatever it is. So even if their net margin is exactly the same, people feel better about what they're spending and have a favorable view of the park. That means they'll come back next year.

And let's not forget Will's goal to double attendance in ten years (2005 to 2015). His park has had unprecedented growth in the middle of nowhere, and I think that's possible because he understands running a business while respecting his customers. Respecting your customers is ultimately what makes a hospitality business sustainable.

Jeff said:

Respecting your customers is ultimately what makes a hospitality business sustainable.

That's what makes any business sustainable, not just hospitality. If you piss off all your customers, you don't get to last long.

I am a long time reader of this site and a big fan of

Cedar Point.  With that said, I agree the Kinzel era 

should have already come to an end or be coming to an end

very shortly!  Quotes like the one mentioned in this 

thread are not the type of PR that CP needs right now.  

The food in the park has been an issue for quite some 

time, first of all it is not great, is expensive, and 

when you can ride the Gemini quicker than you can 

purchase a corn-dog then there is a problem.

^Threads like these are usually not taken under consideration by the PR department, unless you're Tony or Tyler, and in this case, unless they wanted to be fired, you'll not hear a peep from them.

Sure, the quote is negative PR to enthusiasts, and to people who read the original article source, but it has yet to be seen on television, heard on the radio, or read in a major paper. But, this website has influenced the park before, so I guess you can never say never..

Jeff said:
And let's not forget Will's goal to double attendance in ten years (2005 to 2015). His park has had unprecedented growth in the middle of nowhere, and I think that's possible because he understands running a business while respecting his customers. Respecting your customers is ultimately what makes a hospitality business sustainable.

That's another thing I question.

Not the respect thing, but the reasons for the growth. HW attendance has skyrocketed because the park has grown exponentially. It's not about free drinks, free parking and free sunscreeen. Since the freebies began the park has added:

Legend
ZOOMbabwe
Zinga
Liberty Launch
Hallowswings
Jungle Racer
Jungle Jets
Bahari Wave Pool
Voyage
Gobbler Getaway
Bahari River
Bakuli
Turkey Whirl
finished Thanksgiving area

The park essentially went from a nothing park in podunk, Indiana to a medium sized theme park in that time. I don't believe for a second that the goodwill of freebies put them over a million visitors - the fact that they actually have attractions and things to do did.

If they stopped expanding now, they'd never reach their goal of doubling attendance by 2015. But I bet if they started charging for the freebies and bumped up their prices they'd still make it.

With that said, obviously you have to respect the customer. But I'm not sure leveraging the fact that they have to eat in the park is necessarily disrespecting them.

leveraging >> abusing

But, this website has influenced the park before

Has it?

I too, Pete, am a fan of the era from the 50's thru the 70's at CP. My grandfather, Emile LeGros, was the chairman and CEO during those years and ran the park. Roose was a partner, but preferred to stay in the background. My grandfather, who had met Disney, was, like him, fixated on delivering a great family experience. That included rides, entertainment, and food. He would often walk the park alone (not with an enterage of subordinates as I saw Kinzel doing at Knotts Berry Farm) to see how the guests were enjoying themselves, to talk with the employees, and to sample the food. When we would visit, he loved to take us to places within the Point to eat. He particularly liked the charburgers that they used to sell over near the Space Spiral, as did we. He was friends with the Berardi's, who ran the fries stands in park, as well as the other lessees. He would not have looked for revenue by considering his guests a captive audience and gouging them on food. He must be spinning in his grave.

One thing I like about this thread is people can't accuse us of being "CP Fan Boys".

CPboy, I guess you're rather new here, but it is this websites' influence that has helped develop a great relationship with the park, and with Jeff and Walt.

I think the point that some are missing is this: Kinzel can think whatever he wants to think all day long, but there are things that you just don't go out and say, and this is one of them. He's making the assumption that because people have to eat, they have to do it in the park. Apparently Sandusky and it's offerings mean nothing to him anymore.

Kinzel could care less, he will blow you off like a bug on a counter.

Walking around and picking up some trash here or there is just some BS hype deluxe.

Why do you think Geauga Lake tanked, because it sucked or because Cedar Fair destroyed it on purpose?

Tin foil hats have a tendency to block common sense, you might want to remove yours.

Lord Gonchar said:
Not the respect thing, but the reasons for the growth. HW attendance has skyrocketed because the park has grown exponentially. It's not about free drinks, free parking and free sunscreeen. Since the freebies began the park has added...

Come on, man, no one is trying to pin HW's success on one thing. You know that. Heck, Will said a couple of years ago that marketing to the Indianapolis market was a huge win for them. But I can't think of one business that has scored as many karma points as them just by treating people right. They happily take your money, as much as they can, without making you feel dirty.

This thread is too large in scope to pretend that a whole lot of people aren't feeling dirty about spending money at Cedar Point. When you're fighting a poor economy, movies, Xbox's, FEC's, the Internet, etc., can you afford to leave people feeling that way? These results, indicating a decrease in per cap spending, tell me you can't.

I'll go Jeff a step further. The complaining on this thread certainly points to some problems...that should be of GREATER concern because they are coming on this thread. People in here are likely frequent guests of Cedar Point. If your "fans" are feeling bad about things what does that say about your casual visitors who likely are feeling bad too and may not give it another chance?

And, I think it is safe to say a Jeff and a Walt complaining...two people who felt so strongly about the park that they devoted time and money to create a website about it...even smacks of bigger problems.

No one is saying free pop made the success HW now experiences and nobody is saying high priced food is leading to the troubles at the Point.

But, if you objectively look at what Holiday World strives for with its customer service (Paula's frequent posts in Coasterbuzz...see Tony/Tyler doing THAT?) compared to what we see from the Point (and Cedar Fair specifically) I think you really start to realize the degree to which Kinzel is micromanaging the company into troubled times.

Chief, it extends far beyond Kinzel micromanaging. A major problem that exists with the company today is their lack of understanding about the current power that the consumer holds. You started to hit on the problem with the Tony/Tyler vs. Paula comparison, but didn't really get there. The consumer really controls the marketplace now, the corporations and businesses don't. That is something that Cedar Point (and Cedar Fair) aren't grasping...well...some people at other parks in the chain do. There was a lot of interest in Cedar Fair Village from some of the other park managers in the chain before a threat on our jobs from corporate arrived, despite the fact that we disclosed no proprietary information, discussed nothing that wasn't already available to the public or anyone that cared to find out. They are flat out afraid of any kind of negative view, news, or publicity. Unfortunately, they have yet to learn that they cannot truly control those things anymore in today's world. I have learned this year that even expressing a negative opinion on this site can get you in trouble, and that is truly telling about where the company stands in regards to its understanding of today's consumers, and the power that we hold. Transparency is something the chain (and the park, more specifically) needs to grasp. Unfortunately, being transparent right now wouldn't net them much positive press. Yet they need to figure out that the negative will get out there.

Today's consumers are being much more vocal about their opinions, because they know that they actually wield power to change things now. A recent position cut was made at several rides, and as a result, guest complaints have increased about those rides (I'll leave it up to you to figure out who made the cuts). Once the consumers' vocal range extends out to the web and to sites like Consumerist.com, maybe then they will realize how far out of touch they are.

Jeff said:

This thread is too large in scope to pretend that a whole lot of people aren't feeling dirty about spending money at Cedar Point. When you're fighting a poor economy, movies, Xbox's, FEC's, the Internet, etc., can you afford to leave people feeling that way? These results, indicating a decrease in per cap spending, tell me you can't.

Except. . .

It has been repeatedly noted that the admission price at CP is not only a great bargain, but less than in the past. If you bring your own food CP is a greater bargain than HW. But the opposite is not true--you can't bring your own rides to HW to take advantage of their better food prices. Would people be happy if CP added $10 per admission and lowered food prices?

You may resume the old discussion over which is better--lower admission prices and higher in-park prices or vice versa

Chief Wahoo said:
...and nobody is saying high priced food is leading to the troubles at the Point.

Good point. That's the Coasterbuzz thread. :)

But, if you objectively look at what Holiday World strives for with its customer service (Paula's frequent posts in Coasterbuzz...see Tony/Tyler doing THAT?) compared to what we see from the Point (and Cedar Fair specifically) I think you really start to realize the degree to which Kinzel is micromanaging the company into troubled times.

Don't confuse customer service and PR. And I have seen Tony post over there a few times. Promoting your park on a website isn't really customer service. But I digress.

I'm not saying the company isn't being run incorrectly. Hell, I don't know and I don't really care.

With that said, I don't for a second buy the food situation as the thing that's going to kill the company or even the thing that's indicitive of how the company is run. I don't think the comment was all that startling and I prefer that kind of transparency over the spun PR attempts by most other parks. That's why you'll always see me championing Shapiro and SF - they want your money and have no problem making that clear. I guess it doesn't make me feel dirty, I respect the honesty.

I suppose it does go back to separating this thread from the CB thread (and maybe I'm not doing that) as far as what's really being said.

I'll go Jeff a step further. The complaining on this thread certainly points to some problems...that should be of GREATER concern because they are coming on this thread. People in here are likely frequent guests of Cedar Point.

Not familiar with the online Disney communites, huh? ;)

Jeff said:
This thread is too large in scope to pretend that a whole lot of people aren't feeling dirty about spending money at Cedar Point.

I suppose if you feel the 15 or 20 people who posted in this thread are representative of the park's 3 million visitors, then sure. I'm not sure they are.

These results, indicating a decrease in per cap spending, tell me you can't.

In all fairness the per caps dropped 13 cents - about 1/2 of one percent. I'd blame that on nothing more then the current economic climate. Every 10th person through the gate who'd normally play a game is skipping it.

Rapids 77-78 said:
My grandfather, who had met Disney, was, like him, fixated on delivering a great family experience. That included rides, entertainment, and food.

And that is exactly the CP I remember as a young kid. Your grandfather must have had a really good heart, as that showed in how the park was run. During that time, the customer certainly was made to feel like a guest, and like the park was doing everything it could to show them a good time. A visit to CP exceeded expectations, the price of things inside the park was never an issue.

I wish all the younger people here could be transported back to that era to experience what the park was like, they would really be impressed.