Kinzel Kups seem to be history

Vince982 said:
Pretty sure because you've witnessed it? Or pretty sure solely based of the Disney experience? Because on the CP tickets site it just says "Valid for one admission any one day between August 20-September 3, 2012. Valid for anyone between the ages of 3-61 who is 48" tall or taller in shoes." it mentions nothing about showing ID or anything of that nature.

There was a one day promotion after the Gatekeeper anouncement for $25 tickets good any day before Sept. 3rd but they had to be purchased that day before midnight.

MaverickLaunch said:
I think they'd have to raise it a whole lot more than a few bucks. I'm betting CP makes a ton of money from soda sales.

Except that's not how the data works out. Holiday World raised their ticket prices by a few dollars, and their overall per capita in-park spending when up significantly, for a net gain.

It seems like we were all excited that Kinzel Kups were gone at the start and end of the season last year as well, but the supply had simply run out.

Hopefully the nicer cups are here to stay though. It's so nice to have a large cup of ice water on a hot day. Six Flags was using the same tiny shot glasses as CP. :(

We just take a bottle of Powerade and refill it with water while we're there so I can't really say I care what size cups they give free water in. I've been drinking from the fountains all over the park since I was a kid, it's never occurred to me to ask for free water at a concession stand.

I didn't know about it until a couple years ago and it's really nice to just go up and get one.

When I went to the park on August 19-20th, they gave us regular cups that were half filled.

Jeff said:

Except that's not how the data works out. Holiday World raised their ticket prices by a few dollars, and their overall per capita in-park spending when up significantly, for a net gain.

I didn't know that, and believe what you're saying, though it is counter-intuitive (to me). Still, I'm not sure the sample size of that data is such that a certain conclusion can be drawn.

Parks know all kinds of data about what people spend in the park. When Holiday World instituted the "free" drink policy, Will Koch was *very* upfront with *exactly* what he was doing. He had been tracking customer spending in the park and he figured out that the average customer was spending $2.85 on soft drinks. That equation is very simple:

[ Total beverage revenue ] / [ Number of customers in the park]

For the season in which the "free" drink service started, admission went up $4. $1 to pay for The Legend, and $3 to pay for the drinks. In other words, the year that the "free" drink service started, Holiday World's drink per-cap actually *increased* by fifteen cents.

What they learned after starting the program was that there were a lot of benefits that they hadn't anticipated, like the increase in food per-caps and the decrease in nuisance complaints.

Now, I think Kings Island and Cedar Point are doing some interesting things with drinks this season. At Kings Island, it seems that you can get a drink wristband for all-day drinks for only $6. Or you can buy one large drink for $4. Huh? With pricing like that, who in his right mind would buy one drink?

My guess is that at $4 per serving, their per-cap is right around $6. That wristband seems to be aimed directly at people like me, who might consider buying drinks if they were more reasonably priced. Since they can't get $4 out of me for one drink, they figure maybe they can get $6 and thus boost their drink per-cap even though they pour more product. Which, quite frankly, doesn't matter...their margin on pop is so incredibly huge that I don't think I could possibly drink enough to make it unprofitable for them.

While I would love to see them go with a "free" drink program, the total population of the park might make that a difficult to manage. Offering a drink wristband program might be a good alternative, at least for experimentation. What I *really* think they need to do is get rid of the *PARKING* fees. They could easily roll all the parking fees proportionally into the various admission fees, cut their expenses in managing the parking lots, AND add a gigantic "FREE" sign that they could promote the heck out of. Especially given the way a certain competing chain prices their parking.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I've discussed this before, but I really think if you roll parking and drinks into admission, the ticket price is just going to get too high, and they're going to risk losing a competitive pricing edge, since many customers simply look at ticket prices, forgetting expenses like parking and drinks.

These type scenarios work well for smaller parks like Kennywood and Holiday World, as their admission is still significantly cheaper than most major parks. If a major park like CP rolled these costs into admission, you'd likely be looking at a ticket price of $60 or more, which is getting beyond the psychological comfort level for many.

When you throw in fixed costs like parking and drinks that need to be made up, then it's more difficult to offer enticing ticket deals. Right now, CP can push stripped-down tickets out the door for $15-25 to boost lagging attendance. But if they load those tickets, $25 to $35 isn't as attractive. And if a nearby Six Flags park can offer those stripped $15-25 rates, they could potentially lose sales to those that don't think about adding in the Six Flags parking and drinks.

But, I'm always a fan of experimenting with pricing formulas to get the optimal results. It's clear that Cedar Fair is doing more experimenting lately, and I imagine we might see soft drinks rolled into admission at a test park in the future.

I was at KI a few days ago, and I think the drink wristband was $5, but that was only for unlimited souvenier cup refills for one day. You still have to buy the cup unless you are like most people there who seem to already have one from 10 years ago.

CP has those wristbands which they offer for around $7.50 during Coastermania. I always buy one. They offer something similar in Soak City on a regular basis, but rarely in the main park from what I've seen.

Ffej, I like and agree with what you're saying about keeping ticket prices low. I think what CP is doing (cheap tickets, and expensive everything-else) is smart business.

As my dad used to say... "They give you the handle, but SCREW you on the blades.." (in reference to mens razors). That seems to be the CP philosophy when it comes to tickets.

MaverickLaunch said:
As my dad used to say... "They give you the handle, but SCREW you on the blades.." (in reference to mens razors). That seems to be the CP philosophy when it comes to tickets.

In my experience, people generally view the disposable razor business negatively. Hence, I'm in agreement that CP would be far better off charging a higher gate, and offering free soda.

As for the shock of the higher gate, I think all they'd need to do is advertise the heck out of the free soda (and possibly parking). Folks have become accustomed to $3+ soda. Telling them that it's now free would be a huge benefit, and would limit the ill feelings resulting from the $4 (or whatever) gate increase.

I concur. There would be so much advantage, both from a customer satisfaction as well as an employee cost reduction, in simply building the expenditure into the admission.

The $25 ticket deal was about 2 weeks ago. They were advanced sale tickets good through labor day. You can't get them anymore. Best deal right now is passholders getting people in for $14.99 or if you have no passholder friends, you can get a ticket for $36.99 online.

I still have my Windseeker cup from last year and get it filled with ice water. Occasionally I get a $1.99 refill of Mt. Dew.

<edit to add>

Didn't realize there was a 2nd page of posts when I clicked submit. :-p

I'd definitely like Cedar Fair to try it with one of their smaller parks like Dorney to see what happens. There are some close competitors there, so it might really be telling whether people are attracted or turned off.

Another thing to think about...season pass prices. Let's hypothetically say the rolled in cost of parking and drinks is $10, and the average number of season pass visits is 4. Does this mean we're going to see a $40 increase across all season pass prices? It could potentially be devastating at a park like Kings Island, where they push through season passes for $70 or cheaper.

I think it'd be much more difficult to change consumer perception that more expensive loaded tickets are the better value than cheap tickets with hidden add-ons at a large park like CP rather than a smaller park like Holiday World...especially when CP has used the stripped approach for decades and its the industry norm.

I'd rather there be cheaper tickets and more expensive food and drinks. Their mission is to get people into the park. Once they're in the park, they'll start buying the expensive stuff.

Except the actual data doesn't back that up.

Ffej said:
...the average number of season pass visits is 4. Does this mean we're going to see a $40 increase across all season pass prices?

Where do you get $40?

Using Holiday World as an example, their gate increase was $3 to account for the free soda. If an average season pass holder visits 4 times/season, the season pass would only cost an extra $12. Unless I'm missing something.

DJ: I was estimating $4 for drinks and $6 parking.

Jugga: Where's the actual data? Holiday World? If so, I'd still say they're 2 different animals.

Also, are Holiday World's in-park food prices comparable to Cedar Fair's? In other words, are Cedar Fair guests going to start lunging at $15 subs because they don't have to pay for drinks? They really might have to change more variables to make things work.

Edit: For the record, I like their current direction/experimentation, and I'd like to see even more deals / Fun Perks rolled out to all parks. Right now, those that don't care about money are being charged full price, as they should be. Those that do care about money are able to score deals and perks around the park. For those that support drinks included in admission, grab a $5 wrist band.

When the park starts offering Arnold Palmer then I'll buy drinks.

I would rather they keep the ticket prices down than up them just for free pop and such. I'm used to not buying a ton of pop so all that's doing for someone like me is making it harder to afford a family trip to the park in the first place.