Jr gemini derails. (also: Maverick restraint design)

How could you say that RideMan? Maverick is one of the best rides Cedar Point has to offer. Ive riddin it 17 times in the past month and never had any problems with the shoulder "bars". yeah their are a few bangs to the head along the ride, but all in all the ride it's self makes me forget all about the shoulder "bars".

I also am confused by all the people who have been so "uncomfortable" on Maverick. I rode Raptor on Thursday in the front row, and I was beat up FAR MORE than I have ever been beat up on Maverick. Is it as smooth and comfortable as Millennium Force? Not at all... but is it unacceptable? Far from it...

I think it's hilarious how Jeff jumps all over some people about their credentials, yet he is not an engineer or anything even close and is the authority on restraints around here! It's obvious that he has personal issues with certain people around here, and they all happen to be people who know far more than him about engineering and rides. Personally, the fact that he brags about being employed by Cedar Fair and then acts like a child on this board makes me wonder if the CF execs really do read this board. If they did, they must laugh at him behind his back all the time, because he really looks like an idiot more often than not these days. I'm sure I'll be banned, so goodbye! *** Edited 6/24/2007 6:08:47 AM UTC by Existentialist***

Boohoo! Jeff picks on people! This "child" doesn't have personal issues with anyone here other than perhaps Walt and Pete, the only two people I around here I generally have a close relationship with, or would even be able to identify on the midway.

Do the OTSR's restrain any part of your body? No. Does the bar? Yes. I don't think you need to be an expert to figure that out. You only need to sit in the seat.

halltd said:
I think you need to take some reading comprehension classes, Jeff.

I think your posts always fit into one of the predictable patterns.

It's easy enough... if you have an opinion, back it up. I might disagree with you, but I won't call you out. I never call out Dave... why do you think that is? Despite being a hater toward the ride, I don't call him out because he's capable of forming a well-supported and thought out opinion. Some of you could learn a lot by reading his posts. If you did, maybe people like him would post more around here.

No where in my post did I say riders weren't restrained by their thighs. In many other threads I've said the shoulder portions are doing nothing and could easily be removed. But, that wasn't even the point of my question IN THIS THREAD. I was merely stating (not claiming to be an expert) that it looked dangerous for the little riders because their heads are completely below the shoulder restraint. It appears they could get their head underneath it and I ASKED if that could be dangerous. How does THAT have anything to do with rider's being restrained by their thighs?

Yikes, children, can I remind you that this is a Jr Gemini thread!

Thanks for the info 9hours - glad to hear Jr. Gemini is back in operation. Do we know what happened to the ride?

The OTSR has nothing to do with restraining normal sized riders, but it allows larger guests to ride. If a few fatsos fell out of other Intamins with lap bars, I could easily see it happening on Maverick too. Either you get OTSRs or you restrict who can ride. I weigh a normal amount, but I still appreciate the OTSRs because it makes the line move faster. It seems to me that about every other train on MF and TTD has someone who can't fit, which results in dispatch times that are far below ideal. In a perfect world I'd rather have Maverick lose the OTSRs, but I really don't think they detract from the ride and it keeps that line moving faster than any other Intamin in the park.

exactly Existentialist. That's what i'm talking about. People on this site don't think of anything but their self, and that's what makes things like this happen. some people need "accommodations" in order to ride coasters such as Millennium, Dragster, or even Jr. Gemini.

OTSRs in my opinion give nothing but a safer, more fit ride. If you want to complain about "Maverick feels like this, and Maverick hurts my back", then I got a good idea......don't ride it.

OTSR's do not provide a safer ride. Just ask Premier Rides.

pics of the possible derailment?? If thats even a word. But you all know what I mean even if spelling wasn't ever the easiest for me.

But I don't even like burritos!

Dang . . . I do. Puuuuttttzzzzz!

Thriller rollercoast said:
and Six Flags parks may be falling apart, but Six Flags Great America is still good.

I have to disagree--I visited SF Great America for the first time two weeks ago and it was a terrible experience on many levels, which I won't get into here (better saved for a thread on CoasterBuzz). I visited SF Fiesta Texas on Friday and had a much better time there.

..Al

RideMan said:
Honestly, the more I ride Maverick, the less I like it.

I'm just the opposite. The more I ride, the more I want to ride it.

I agree with Josh. I really don't see where all the complaining about the restraints is coming from. I've ridden Maverick over 40 times, and have yet to be bruised, or feel any kind of pain. It certainly doesn't "beat the living crap out of you". And I don't know how the ride hosts can shove the restraint into your chest. It's a lapbar, and rests against your thighs, so not sure how it could hit your chest. I'm a pretty big guy, and I find them very comfortable.

Anyway, looks like thread has derailed worse than Jr. Gemini did. This Maverick restraint discussion should be continued in the original thread.

http://www.pointbuzz.com/cpplace.aspx?mode=thread&TopicID=21237

Next time I go to the park I should go to the Maverick test seat and take some measurements.

Intamin gave us a lot of extra space with the Maverick restraint. So much space, in fact, that the lap bar doesn't actually come down into your lap. Take a look at the way the lap bar swings some time. When the lap bar is at its lowest point, the part of the bar that attaches to the pivot point is vertical, and the part that comes forward to form the lap bar is horizontal. That is the lowest point for the lap bar...that is, it is the point at which the lap bar is as close to the seat bottom as it is going to get. The bar can pivot further than that, but as it does so, the lap bar actually moves *higher* as it swings backward towards the seat back.

It just so happens that with the lap bar in its lowest position, the lap bar sits about an inch to an inch and a half above my thighs. That is also the position at which the bottom of the shoulder restraint comes into contact with my somewhat squishy stomach.

The current crew of operators are not trained on this quirk of the Maverick lap bar (in much the same way that the Millennium Force operators are not trained on a particularly nasty quirk of that ride's lap bar). Instead they are told to push the lap bar down against the thighs, even though the lap bar is mounted too high to actually come into contact with the thighs of most riders. So they push the bar past its lowest point and shove it into my gut, effectively jamming the four uncovered bolt ends on the back of the restraint into the silk-screen on my T-shirt.

Besides ripping up my shirt, making the restraint tighter accomplishes nothing. I still bounce up and down in the seat because the lap bar still doesn't come down securely into my lap. But having the bar that tight sure makes me sore by the end of the ride. My last two rides on the thing were not pleasant. To be more effective, the lap bar needs to be dropped down about an inch and a half, although it's perfectly safe the way it is now. A better solution would be to extend the seat bottom forward a few inches and remove the shoulder bar altogether, keeping the lower part of the chest pad and the safety belt in place. And above all, get the word out to park executives and lap bar checkers everywhere that "tighter" almost never equals "safer" where rider restraints are concerned.

== Jeff; you think maybe we should copy about half of this thread to the Maverick forum and continue it there?

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

That's interesting about the bolts in the restraint digging into your shirt, haven't experienced that.

Personally, I find the restraints comfortable enough, certainly comfortable enough to totally enjoy the ride.

I was lucky enough to get a number of rides in a row on Maverick a while ago, and on maybe my 8th or 9th ride, I did feel the restraints a bit. I'm on the taller side, so the shoulder harness does actually hold my body down as much as the lap bar does. After my morning of riding, I had some mild bruises on my shoulders from the shoulder harness, where the shoulder harness held my body down during airtime. Nothing major, but enough to make additional rides not as comfortable.

But, when the normal crowds only allow for one or two rides when I'm at the park, I have no issues with the restraints at all.

Maybe I'm missing something, but what does any of this have to do with Jr. Gemini Derailing?

Simple, Junior Gemini is made by Intamin. Intamin also makes Maverick. Cedar Points safety engineer has a long history of making un-intelligent decisions regarding safety (see seat-belts on CorkScrew). So, since Jr. Gemini de-railed it is going to be retro-fitted with Maverick style OTSR's so that it is "safer" as well as having seatbelts installed.
So, we are discussing why Maverick has OTSR and why they are (are not) better than just a lapbar such as on TTD.

I can't move or copy a thread in this version of the forum app. Sorry, Dave. :) Next version!

Anyway, I disagree with your assessment about the dimensions of the restraint, Dave. See this photo:

http://www.pointbuzz.com/photos/Photo.aspx?id=6321

At its lowest point, the restraint certainly can't go any further and swing upward, and at that lowest point, anyone tall enough to ride will have thick enough legs.

While I agree that someone with larger girth would have the bar touching their gut before their legs, the combination of that with the hump and sides to the seat guarantee that they can not move forward under the bar. One could argue that if the bar was high enough they could, but given the no-go stitching on the belt, they wouldn't be allowed to ride.

I guess my point is that the shoulder restraints still serve no functional purpose in this arrangement.

Again, I need to take some measurements. The main point, though, is that Intamin gave us a lot of room, and the bottom of the bar comes down to a point which is surprisingly far away from the seat bottom. My issue with the seat *depth* is that the one thing that needs to happen with a lap bar these days is to prevent a rider from getting into a position where he can straighten out his legs at the hip and at the knee, as that is the one and only way to come out from under the lap bar.

Obviously I agree with you that the shoulder restraints serve no real functional purpose. If anything, they serve to prevent the lap bar from functioning as well as it could.

And incidentally, I think Maverick's lap bar is one of the smartest lap bar designs I have seen. I really do like the basic design, and I especially like the fact that if the lock should fail, it won't become totally useless as most lap bars will. It's an inherently failsafe configuration, unlike most lap bars. The shoulder restraint, on the other hand...get rid of that, and I'll be a lot happier. :)

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

Jeff said:...but given the no-go stitching on the belt, they wouldn't be allowed to ride.

You mean the no-go rubber band, don't you?