FLP up again to $249 on Saturdays

CED23 said:

Joe E said:

CED23 said:

They are not giving away the gate in reality. You and other either don't follow or have some unrealistic expectations of how regional chains & non Disney/Universal parks prices their lowest passes. BGW parks prices their lowest pass at 2.4X a discounted pre-sale ticket online from their website.

That pass ($138) has blackout dates and doesn't even include the waterpark or parking! Their gold pass equivalent (parking, waterpark, no blackout dates) is $216. Their platinum equivalent is $369 (but with some extra deals)

Dollywood is a park CP should be trying to emulate and would be the closest comparison. They are both regional, but attract visitors from outside the area with the resorts and has the sperate waterpark gate. Their park and waterpark combo is $200 without parking.

A Waldameer season pass is even at $112. CP is insane for offering theirs near the same price

BGW passes are not equivalent as you claim, the pass you referenced is $192 now & it gives you 2 free tickets & a bunch of other stuff. One of the reasons SEAS parks are more for passes b/c they include a lot of other stuff that Cedar Fair & other parks don't. Ie... SEAS platinum for instance gives you 6 free tickets per yr

You are looking at the dry park pass only, the comparison is both park and waterpark (what CP's gold pass is) Point is, their basic park and waterpark pass is $162, and has blackout dates and doesn't include parking. Visit twice and it's $200 plus with the parking fee added. Plus you cant go on a Fall Saturday or visit the waterpark some weekends.

CED23 said:

What's nonsensical is the notion the resort has anything to do with offering the Gold Pass, which is designed for essentially locals.

Quoting the entire post, especially including nested quotes, is unnecessary and against the guidelines, FYI.

Who the Gold Pass is targeted toward is irrelevant. What's relevant is that providing early entry to Gold Pass guests diminishes the value of staying at the resorts they just invested a ton of money into.

CED23 said:

Another post by people with the "mentality they own the park as Platinum holders" & that let's exclude people that don't want to pay $200 for Platinum.

I really want to know who the person is with the Platinum pass and what terrible thing they did to you to make you focus on it so much.

Try to keep up & actually read the thread. I'm a Platinum holder since they were introduced. I have Platinum ASFLP, all the other Platinum add ons. I however have called out the mentality of essentially forget anyone that doesn't want to spend $200 for Platinum to go to CP only, which is all over this thread. CP filled a gap in their offering by not having Gold Pass & many in this thread don't like that they did. Adding a Gold Pass was a smart business move, though CP got the initial pricing wrong, which they seem to have corrected somewhat.

You don't need to be a dick to other people to make a point. Craig is right, you've yet to back up your claim about gate integrity beyond your weird obsession about platinum passholders, which as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with anything.

I went today and got my ASFLP at the stand just inside the front entrance. I asked the person how many ASFLP requests she gets. She said very few. So either there are fewer out there then we think or it is redeemed elsewhere. I know when I am in line to the get the pass, it seems like most people are pulling out a piece of paper with the pass on it or a credit card. So they don't have ASFLP.

Jeff said:

You don't need to be a dick to other people to make a point. Craig is right, you've yet to back up your claim about gate integrity beyond your weird obsession about platinum passholders, which as far as I can tell, has nothing to do with anything.

Actually read the financials Q2 report today. Look at the per caps for Q2 & The July numbers they broke out. The notion they are giving away the gate is nonsensical. CF has never given away the gate like SF. But, the false premise is based on the notion, as I said before among some Platinum people that "essentially forget anyone that is not Platinum". They fail to get how Gold Passes are good business decision filling a gap in offerings.

CED23 said:

They fail to get how Gold Passes are good business decision filling a gap in offerings.

No one is failing to get this, it's that it's not necessarily a smart business move. The Cadillac CT4 starts at $60,000, a price that leaves a big gap, or "leaves people out" or whatever. In order to fill in that gap, should Cadillac have de-contented the car in order to fill in the down-market gap? Of course not. The right move is to offer a separate down-market vehicle.

The Gold Pass should have been CP's XT4, a nice car that "fills in the gap," but does so in a way that doesn't devalue the CT4.

The Gold Pass may "fill in a gap," but it does so in a way that devalues the Platinum Pass and resort.

CED23, I don't believe anyone here stated that the Gold Pass was a bad idea. The observations are that they were grossly underpriced for what you get. Before the GP a regular SP was ~$100 - $120 and did not include parking nor CP Shores. Then they released the GP for only $99 which included all of the above and the rest of the 2019 season. No matter how you want to look at it this was "giving away the gate." I believe the PP is underpriced too but if they wanted to keep them ~$200 the GP still would've been a great deal at $149.

ETA: Brandon is correct that it was a bad idea to devalue early entry by allowing GP the same access. And I further agree not because it devalues PP holders so much as it devalues the resort guest experience. Bad idea.

As for my opinion on ASFLP, I believe the impact (if any) is negligible to the experience on a daily basis for the below reasons:

1. I don't think the regular enthusiast is the demographic that shells out $900 per person so the people that do have it aren't visiting the park multiple times per week.

2. Last year when ASFLP were the only ones who had it, there really wasn't anyone in the FL queues. I know the pandemic certainly skewed these numbers lower then typical but last fall the park was still quite crowded on Saturdays and there still wasn't anyone in the FL queues (I know because I attended almost every one).

3. This year when they announced the return of daily FLP sales the all-season option was already sold out so the only people who had were the ones who purchased it last fall or 2019.

4. I've personally noticed a difference since they (thankfully) started raising the daily price. I used it on the 26th and every ride had the wait you'd expect for FL (<15 minutes) except Maverick and SV which is to be expected given Maverick's capacity and SV still being the marquee attraction. And even then they weren't that bad. I didn't choose to wait for Maverick but my guess looking at the FL queue is the wait would've been ~30 minutes. SV had a flood in their queue and they were mixing FL with regular and separating them once everyone entered the regular entrance so we chose to skip that as well.

Could I be wrong about the above? Sure. I don't work for the park nor claim to have inside information. But I think this assessment is certainly reasonable. Also I'm in agreement with Brandon that ASFLP is underpriced as well but I think $1,500 is too much. I'd say $1,000 for CP only and $1,200 for Platinum is appropriate. Again, just my opinion.

On early entry notion of devaluation

1)The original intent was Gold only got in at 930am & access the front of the park. CP didn't have the staff to enforce that with check point & ride gate attendance on rides. Thus, they changed it. We will see in 2022 if they go back to the original intent.

2)Resort guest now are the only ones that can use the Resort Gate. So, they actually can get to Maverick & Steel Vengeance the 2 most popular rides that develop waits, way before anyone. Platinum used to be able to enter the gate, now it's a 15min walk from the front gate for Platinum to Frontier town. Resort guests are thus guaranteed the front of the line now & before they had to deal with Platinum holders.

On Gate Integrity:

1)Looking at the per caps across the chain, admission per caps across the chain up over $4. Total per caps up to $55. CP drives the bus as its per caps are only rivaled by Knotts.

2)Already stated CP corrected the under pricing which was only Fall 2019. 2020 the cheapest price was $119 for 6wks & kept rising starting Nov 1st to $129, $135, $150. Also, if you look at what CF has been saying on pass sales it was strong in 2020 & really strong in Q2 2022...1M across the chain, logic says a lot of those were at CP & people paying the $135 price which was all of Q2.

Agree with your ASFLP statements.

I think you're still missing how much early entry for resort guests gets devalued by allowing GP early entry at all, let alone 9am. For the sake of minimizing the devaluation let's say the originally intended GP early entry time of 9:30, at the front gate, was still enforced. In this case yes the resort guests enjoy ~45 minutes of ERT.

Meaning once the GP army is released at 9:30 it takes them roughly 15 minutes to get to SV at which point ERT is over because the line swells. One could even argue ~40 minutes of ERT due to the fact it takes resort guests roughly 5 minutes to get there from the resort gate. While still not being the "hour" promised to the resort guests it is still acceptable.

But that's not the case. Instead, the GP army is allowed, in the front gate, at 9am. Yes the resort guests get a head start since they can get to the ride roughly 10 minutes faster but after that ERT is over. Now they're only enjoying a fraction of the "hour" they were promised. Not good.

My point on my gate integrity example was (and you appear to agree) in 2019 the price was way too low. Yes, they're heading in a better direction now but had they correctly charged $149 in 2019 then their "really strong in Q2 2021 (I'm assuming that's you meant)" sales would've been more appropriately priced at ~$175, not $135 which, in my opinion, is still "giving away the gate" for everything included.

ETA: I just went to their website and now they're offering a "MI Super Saver" ticket which includes admission, parking, and all day drinks for $54.99. Again, giving away the gate. They don't have an attendance problem. Why are they doing this?

Forget the perks or conditions entirely. A hundred bucks to go to Cedar Point as much as you want in a summer grossly undervalues the product.

SIX, FUN and SEAS all released earnings for the quarter, and SEAS was the only one that was profitable (I'm as surprised as anyone). There's a really interesting phenomenon there, in that they called out their per capita admission separately from in-park spending. They're netting $42.25 for every click, and then another $33.99 spent in the park. That's $76.24 for every visit. Cedar Fair's reporting is not clear, but they mention "in-park per capita spending" eight times in the release, and it comes in at $55.94. I would be absolutely shocked if that didn't include the admission component along with meal plans, because there's no way all these passholders are spending that much on every visit.

Six Flags was profitable but not like SEAS

SEAS Total per caps are always high, though the $76 was a record.

Cedar Fair accounting is a little tricky the 10-Q explains it while the press release & 8-k don't

In-park per capita spending is calculated as revenues generated within our amusement parks and separately gated outdoor water parks along with related tolls and parking revenues (in-park revenues), divided by total attendance.

Revenues related to extra-charge products, including premium benefit offerings such as front-of-line products, and online transaction fees charged to customers are included in "Accommodations, extra-charge products and other".

Six Flags is still at a loss of $25m for the year so far. SEAS is up $82m for the year. In-park per cap at SEAS is up 23.5%, which is a far cry from always being high.

And the point stands, if FUN doesn't charge enough at the gate.

And amazing...they did it all without choosing to open Iron Gwazi or Pantheon despite the fanboy/girl outcry.

What a beautiful situation to be in. Record setting profits, and next year you have some shiny new rides to market/open to keep the push going.

Jeff said:

Six Flags is still at a loss of $25m for the year so far. SEAS is up $82m for the year. In-park per cap at SEAS is up 23.5%, which is a far cry from always being high.

And the point stands, if FUN doesn't charge enough at the gate.

1) Your original post was about the Quarter profitability & SF was, reread your own post.

2) SEAS per caps are always the highest of regional parks by far, not even close. They were 63.82 in 2019(last normal ops yr) & the increase was 20.5% to 75.71...Cedar Fair was up 18% to $55.94

The point doesn't stand CF is giving away the gate b/c they aren't. CF can't & never will be able to charge like SEAS b/c CF has few actual tourist market locations. SEAS has a bunch...ie...SWO, BGT, SWO are inexpensive to their market with the Disney, Universal parks, etc.. Even being in a tourist market they are currently running $99 BOGO 1 day tickets & Fun Card promotions all yr. Fun Cards were as low as $45 early this yr. I guess they are giving away the gate too, yet you were just praising them.

The give away the gate nonsense is the common theme by Platinum people that are whining about Gold Passes at CP that were offered 1 yr at $99 for an anniversary special. Gold Passes are staying & people can whine about the fake notion of giving away the gate forever. FYI, CP per caps much higher than the $55.94 of the chain wide number.

Jeff said it best a couple of posts above: "Forget the perks or conditions entirely. A hundred bucks to go to Cedar Point as much as you want in a summer grossly undervalues the product."

I think we're all just going to have to agree to disagree with CED23.

CED23 said:

The give away the gate nonsense is the common theme by Platinum people that are whining about Gold Passes at CP that were offered 1 yr at $99 for an anniversary special. Gold Passes are staying & people can whine about the fake notion of giving away the gate forever. FYI, CP per caps much higher than the $55.94 of the chain wide number.

It has nothing to do with Platinum vs Gold. That argument pretty much ends with discussion of early entry perks. This is about a business decision. $100 to go to Cedar Point for a whole season (including waterpark, parking, and other perks) is undervaluing the product. Now they are hurting even more because we're going on two and a half seasons for $100. It'd be one thing if we were talking about Michigan's Adventure or Dorney, but we're not.

In 2019Q2, SEAS had total revenue of 405 million (228 million of that was admissions) while Cedar Fair had 436 million (230 million of admissions). Those are pretty comparable numbers. Fast forward to today, and SEAS reported 440 million in revenues while Cedar Fair reported 227 million in revenues (only 99 million in admissions). You'd think having a big season pass base would help buffer situations like crappy weather, but with the pandemic, SEAS is back to normal since a much higher percentage of their patrons are paying admission while Cedar Fair's customers are still using a cheap two year old pass.

The company getting bought out seemed laughable a couple years ago, but they're in a much more perilous position now I'd say.

First you do realize every chain extended passes. They are claiming 2019 fall sold passes & 2020 sold passes partially in 2021. So, rethink you're entire 1st half of your post & what you inferred that is made false by that fact.

Cedar Fair's revenue is down substantially in Q2 from 2019 b/c the parks were closed most of Q2. Pass revenue & all season product revenue is claimed based on expected use days, if you have 330 less operating days in Q2 2021 compared to Q2 2019, you can't claim much of the deferred revenue. Read a 10-Q & see the explanation on how revenue on passes & all season products is done. Also, the #4 park in revenue Wonderland, was closed the entire quarter, can't claim revenue when you're closed. Knotts which is the only all yr park in the chain also was closed till almost June and is the #1 producer in the chain. Also, since Knotts extended till 2022 & Wonderland till 2022 their revenue will be deferred even more. Like they said, this quarter is not directly comparable to 2019. These things are transitory factors, there is a reason that CF stock didn't tank despite the loss, investors & analysts understand all this & see the long term outlook of CF as good. They still believe CF will execute & build on the 2019 game plan based on Seasons of Fun, they like the diversification of out of park revenue with the sports complexes, hotels, resorts, etc... Also, the notion that CF will be expanding calendars, etc.. The notion they are in perilous shape is false.

$100 for a pass is too low. It's money left on the table. Ask investors. What they won't say is, "No, that's OK, leave that money on the table, that's fine."