Coaster Additions/Changes and General Park Ride Structure

You can't compare Disney to Cedar Point. They are different parks in different places. Disney can justify spending tens upon tens of millions on elaborate attractions. Cedar Point cannot. Disney operates 365 days a year. Cedar Point is only open May-Labor Day with weekends through October. Despite that, dollar for dollar, Cedar Fair is more profitable than Disney.

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A dark ride of Spiderman's caliber at IOA would attract as many people ... and so someone like CP can't justify spending money on them?

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Do you know how much those attractions cost? Spider-Man was something like $200 million. Test Track was $150 million. Mission Space was $200 million. Cedar Point just isn't going to put that much money in one attraction. Besides, Cedar Point isn't Disney. They are two different parks with two different experiences. That's why Disney doesn't build 200-foot hyper coasters.

I would love to see a dark ride at Cedar Point, but having one is hardly going to make or break the park.

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everyone else is just saying "more coasters!"

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Some, not everyone - not even most.

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and that's because this is a coaster message board.

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No, this is a CEDAR POINT message board. We discuss and love all aspects of Cedar Point. You haven't been here very long, but I can tell you that most people here love the park because of the atmosphere and all the intangibles - not because of the roller coasters. Everything on that peninsula - the coasters, the food, the rides, the shows, the lake, the resorts - make Cedar Point what it is. Cedar Point fans understand that.

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It does not represent the entire general public's viewpoints.

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The general public wants a variety - something for the whole family. That's why the park adds all of that "misc. junk" like ice shows, HalloWeekends, resort improvements, new restaurants, kiddie rides, flat rides, etc.

*** Edited 8/6/2004 5:07:00 PM UTC by Walt***

Well, I am trying to be patient because this is a Friday but PacDude...you are off your rocker.

Cedar Point is no Disney and never claims to be. In fact, I will argue that Disney isn't Disney...at least in the way it used to be. Do you think any of the recent dark rides that Disney has built will hold up in 30 years like Pirates and Mansion have to this point? If so, you are nuts.

And there is a MAJOR difference between Disney and Cedar Point...money aside. Disney appeals to families..young families..while Disney appeals to thrill seekers. Groups of young people are Cedar Fair type parks can wreak havoc on a dark ride. Even Disney has some problems with it. It would be far worse for Cedar Point.

But we cannot discount money. Walt is right. Disney and Universal spend over $100 million on dark rides. That is 5 Dragsters. Almost 10 Raptors.

In addition, Disney and Universal have their own designers and engineers. And, most importantly, they have a library of films/characters at their disposal (as does Paramount for that matter).

I would be that even if Cedar Point built a dark ride everyone would compare it to Disney and criticize it...like was done with Phantom Manor at Kings Island and a small coaster called Disaster Transport at Cedar Point.

Apples and Oranges man.

My point is not to compare Disney ride-for-ride, but to point out that dark rides can and do work when made well (e.g. Spiderman is at a park closer to CP in design than Disney; it's themed but contains more thrill rides than dark rides, but it's a nice mix). I'd personally settle for a high quality haunted house ($20 million could buy one heck of a haunted house). If I'm off my rocker to think that, so be it. I tend to think that CP tries one themed thing (like the Disaster Transport makeover of Avalanche Run) or a new wooden coaster (Mean Streak) and concludes the ideas in general of a themed ride or wooden coaster is BAD instead of just seeing that their particular examples were bad. Avalanche Run wasn't that good to begin with so sticking it indoors and throwing some 3rd rate theming on it wasn't going to do much (the ride queue used to at least be a bit more interesting). Their latest gimmick, the 3D glasses is actually pretty funny. I got a good laugh seeing people pulling out of the station wearing those things, but when I asked someone on my sled what they saw that was in 3D during the ride, they said they didn't see anything in 3D. I was glad I saved my buck for the arcade. I won a nice Scooby Doo playing skeeball (cost me 50 cents actually as I won on my first try).

Now I do like Halloweekends, but that's more a festival than a permanant attraction. OTOH, if they can make make-shift dark attractions for October, why not invest a little money and make a permanant one? I'd still take a cheesy dark ride over no dark ride. It's a nice change of pace. I did like the ice skating show this year and last. Other than Power Tower, Paddle boat and the train, it's the only other non-coaster attraction I went on this year so far. I think it's much better than IMAX, which I've walked out of it was so boring on occasion (at least more boring than going on a ride) whereas ice skating is something I like to watch.

As for character/theming, they have the rights to do Peanuts themed rides, so how about a nice Race For Your Life Charlie Brown water ride or something with lots of theming on it? They could even re-theme Thunder Canyon or something instead of building a new ride. It's also be a nice change of pace, IMO. Adults like the Peanuts characters too, after all (I still do, anyway).

As for this not being a coaster board, the posting guidelines say that's what it is. And CP could probably buy a dozen classic flat rides for the price of one small roller coaster (let alone something like TTD $30+ million tag price). I'd be happy if they'd just put something back like the Rotor (long gone from CP and a few years from GL as well). A boardwalk themed area to build up over the next decade in the vicinity of the diving stadium would be something nice to see.

Pac Dude said all of the following:

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I think instead of BIGGER all the time, CP should be thinking CLASSIC and recreate a poplar old wooden coaster from the past that's now gone

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I think CP is overemphasizing roller coasters at the expense of other rides

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I personally think they should get rid of Junior Gemini

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I'm not against lesser "thrill" coasters that are more appropriate for younger riders

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I just don't think Mine Ride and Iron Dragon are fun period. Compare that to Big Thunder Mountain Railroad, which IS fun, despite not being a thrill machine.

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My point is not to compare Disney ride-for-ride

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Wow! :)

Since CP is making money, is voted the best park 6 years running, and has 3.5 million people/ year, why change it up now? They obviously know what they are doing. Comparing CP to a park that is open year round is going to fall on deaf ears. Compare CP to parks in the general area like PKI, Hershey, SF Darian Lake, etc. All those parks have about the same operating days as CP. So compare them to CP and try to prove whatever point you are trying to make.

You are mentioning some ideas that we've talked about here for years. Many of us would like to see some of those things. I'm not taking issue with that - I'm taking issue with your statements regarding the coaster count, Disney, and "record ego" getting in the way of anything else.

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As for this not being a coaster board, the posting guidelines say that's what it is.

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Those guidelines were copied from CoasterBuzz - a web site devoted to coasters and the amusement park industry. The same rules apply here, except for the CoasterBuzz specific rules. I guess we took it for granted that people would understand that.

I really like your use of the '*'.
***I might just have to try it.***

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"Does it seem to you that Cedar Point is building a massive amount of kiddie coasters just to keep a record?"
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No, I NEVER IMPLIED *ANY* SUCH THING. I suggest that next time you actually **READ** what I wrote and learn what SARCASM and humor are (geeze, I thought the "Brown Streak" one alone was hilarious). Man, I can't believe that I'm reading this let alone seeing someone say, "Well said" to it.

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Did *I* imply that **YOU** ever said that?****

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And if you think that Cedar Point has more than two kiddie coasters, than you're crazy
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Where the heck did I *EVER* say any such thing? Do you people just sit there and make stuff up and then counter the stuff you made up and then pat each other on the back afterwards or what? Give me a break already.

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Uhhh... you *implied* it here.

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In any case, I'm not against lesser "thrill" coasters that are more appropriate for younger riders, etc., but I just don't think Mine Ride and Iron Dragon are fun period.

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And to add to what Gonchar said-
"Pac Dude said the following."

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Avalanche Run wasn't that good to begin with so sticking it indoors and throwing some 3rd rate theming on it wasn't going to do much.

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They could even re-theme Thunder Canyon or something instead of building a new ride.

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We all know that you will follow this up with a three page, in depth report/analysis of what I said... (like what I just did) so YOU ARE NOT GOING TO SURPRISE ANYONE. *** Edited 8/7/2004 7:38:50 PM UTC by Topthrill420***

Three other things I just realized-

1. Okay. Everyone has been saying that they want 'Rotor' back and Pac Dude has said that he wants some classic rides. He also said that he doesn't like Iron Dragon, CCMR ect., stating that ridership should be the determining factor in the rides 'right to be in the park'.

Well, what kind of ridership do you think that 'Rotor' or other "classic" rides will get,(If brought back) that is the reason that they were taken out in the first place. Rides with high ridership, such as Magnum as Pac Dude stated, are not removed.

Also, if you remove these rides that "SUCK" in you're POV, then you have no classic rides.

2. Now, Pac Dude, I am not trying to *Bash* you in anyway, (although my last post probably was), but the "You need to learn what SARCASM is" reply kind of got to me so... I will show you what I am talking about.

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I said-
There is a brand new product that just came on the market called- 'Create your own Point'. This state-of-the-art, ground-breaking product allows you to customize the park known as "Cedar Point" anyway you want. "I'm not a kid anymore", then why in the world would Jr. Gemini exist? "Iron Dragon, more like Dragging Iron!". Demolish it and build that B&M Flyer you've always wanted. "TTD breaks down too much.", then fix the thing yourself!

New theming to Disaster Transport, Corkscrew in middle of the lake, no need for such a big parking lot, the sky's the limit! Oh what the hell, demolish everything and build a 600 foot, 17 inversion B&Inti'em' flyer/impulse/6D/floorless/sub-sonic/mega coaster!

On shelves Today! Hurry!

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Then...

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you said
Ah, so it's "bad" to want to remove rides I think are a waste of space (as families supposedly love them or something), but when it comes to one YOU don't like (Disaster Transport), TEAR IT DOWN and put a ride you'd prefer there. For the record, I prefer Disaster Transport over Iron Dragon, Wildcat, or the Mine Ride.

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I think we know WHO you were talking about. Get my point?

3. I do understand what you (Pac Dude) are trying to say. Cedar Point could use some more dark rides. I definately agree...

It's just you don't have to remove coasters and rides that YOU don't like to fit them in. Dark rides, more than any rides, get outdated fast, then they truly SUCK. You can have classic coasters, but there is really no such thing as a classic dark ride. Cedar Point just hasn't replaced the dark rides they used to have, but were outdated and removed. I think that Cedar Point should try to get into the VR amusement ride industry, but just to the 'side', still focusing on coasters. Cedar Point could use these types of rides, but you were making it sound like Cedar Point should become the next IOA or Disney.

But, when you talk about VR rides, you talk about Big Bucks and Cedar Fair doesn't bring in the money that is required to build a $100 million+ ride, while still maintaining other things in the park.

So, unless Cedar Point can find a way to build a quality dark ride for less than $50 Million, I can't really see a dark ride in Cedar Point's future.

But, what do I know?

nicely put topthrill420

Posting my points from multiple messages out-of-context doesn't convey very much guys.

>there is really no such thing as a classic dark ride.

I beg to differ on that. I'd call Pirates of the Caribbean and The Haunted Mansion extremely CLASSIC rides and I never get sick of riding them when I'm at Disney. Dark rides don't have to suck and some can be updated as time goes on.

As for getting rid of rides to make room, I'm just giving my opinions rides I don't like or I think could be improved. I understand other people will disagree. I think that's the point of discussion. Otherwise, we'd just all nod our heads all the time. And I'm far from the only one to think Mean Streak needs to be at least altered (taking the brakes off would be a start) to really be worth riding.

As for rides like The Rotor, are they really that unpopular or are they just LOW CAPACITY rides? If they're meeting their capacity regularly, they're probably not big failures, particularly if they don't cost much to operate and/or take up much space whereas something like Mean Streak sucks up an awful lot of space and operating costs if no one is riding it. I tend to think it's not a question of "IF" with Mean Streak, but WHEN they finally decide they need the space more than a dead coaster (unless they can find some way to improve it). That might be 10-20 years from now, but I can't see them maintaining and increasingly unpopular ride forever. Not all coasters live forever. I'm betting the cost of removing it weighs in a lot in that factor at the moment. I'd bet if they could remove it at no-cost, it'd be gone in a heartbeat (particularly if the higher-ups don't like it as I've read a few times). Enjoy it while it lasts. I'm sure some people were upset when Steel Phantom got converted at KW, but most were happy to see the old coaster form go.

I must say that Cedar Point is doing a great job in nearly all of their decisions about rides and running their park in general. You don't get an award for the best theme park in the World six years in a row for nothing.

they need to concentrate on making the quality of the park better, it s all the little things that make the park come together. a dry bin on the thunder canyon and some work on dt would go a long way. from an engineering standpoint the corkscrew could only add 100 ft or so of track with out having to completely redesign it.

Classic dark rides, ya say?

Take a trip to Kennywood, where you can find all sorts of things (although they decided to "re-theme" the Old Mill into something with Garfield). Where else can ya find a Noah's Ark? There ain't many more of those around. And that's one hella-cool ride.

So, classic dark rides DO exist. Just not at Cedar Point, unless they brought back the Earthquake. Hmmmmm...

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Chief Wahoo said:
If you have no appreciation or respect for the history of parks and coasters then in my opinion you are not an enthusiast.

I've seen that sentiment expressed in other threads as well as this one and would like to add my opinion.

Some of you lump all enthusiasts together. I'm not sure that's a good idea. I LOVE, and I mean LOVE, rollercoasters. I've been a coaster enthusiasts for 30 years - not counting my childhood love of them. Oddly enough, I don't really like amusement parks. They're just the places I have to go to so I can ride coasters.

Granted, some parks are better than others. I do appreciate ones with history. I tend to like traditional parks with trees and a "quaint" atmosphere. I miss my old home park - Crystal Beach. I have fond memories of it's sucker stand, the old ballroom, the Magic Carpet, etc. But those fond memories probably have more to do with remembering my childhood. As an adult, make no mistake, I was there to ride the Comet.

I've ridden about 300 coasters. I have never taken a vacation that was not a coaster trip. I've been to NYC to ride the Cyclone many many times, but never saw the typical tourist sites like the Statue of Liberty. Couldn't waste precious limited vacation days not riding a coaster. Sure, I'm missing a lot. But I am a coaster enthusiast, and THAT is what I crave.

I respect the fact that many of you are park enthusiasts. I think that's just fine. But you need to accept the fact that I come to ride coasters. If CP didn't think coaster enthusiasts were an important group to cater to, why do you think they have so many coasters? Surely, other rides are less expensive and easier to maintain.

So Chief Wahoo, I assure you, I AM an enthusiast. A coaster enthusiast, not a park enthusiast.

And if I understand Pacman correctly, I can agree with one of his early comments. I would like to see CP add a "classic" coaster. By this I mean a coaster that doesn't necessarily break any records. It doesn't have to be 500 ft tall or go over 100 mph. A good example of what I mean is Shivering Timbers. If you like a wood coaster, that's a great one. Airtime that's hard to beat. Comfortable seats. A ride like that would be an excellent addition to the coaster line up. The design is nothing out of the ordinary. It's just freakin' great! And even though I don't ride them, adding something like a rotor, zipper, or even a caterpiller is fine too.

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PacDude said:

Quote deleted: holy quote, Batman! There's no need to quote the entire message (or often, even part of it). - Walt

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You have good points, cedar point could recycle Mean Streak and build at least 2 good wooden coasters from it. Wooden Coasters go very well with hills, tunnels, etc to make them fun but CP obviously lacks hills (OH in its entirity does). It is a problem CP is aware of (how much space/use Mean Streak gets). I also know that people will whine that Mean Streak is awesome and it should never go, I dont agree with that because I hate the feeling of my insides turning into a milk shake!

*** Edited 8/11/2004 9:46:59 PM UTC by Walt***

Speaking of ride counts, SF Astroworld use to count the "Demon Drop" ride (it had another name which I don't remember) as a coaster.