Calypso and Turnpike Cars land

I'd hardly call it a hallmark of the dive coaster if only one goes underground (Oblivion).

Well, alrighty then, Mr. Picky McPickyton. Note "underground" is in quotes. And I'm thinking rides like G5, Sheikra, and even Griffon take the ride into what seems like below grade level. And certainly deeper than any coaster at Cedar Point has dared to go.

Don't think when they built Oblivion that they didn't dig a trench, build the ride then put a lid that you can walk on over that portion of the track.

So, I'm going to refer to the feature of a dive coaster that seems to take riders "underground" somewhere on its course a hallmark. Even if it's a trench with water or a ground level bridge over it. The best designs seem to include some sort of feature like that.

I will also continue to think that it would be cool, if and when CP builds a dive coaster, that they would build a portion of it below grade rather than just drop it to ground level or through an above ground tunnel of some sort.

That isn't underground though. You're making yourself look uneducated here.

He's doing quite the opposite, actually.

PyroKinesis09 said:

That isn't underground though. You're making yourself look uneducated here.

Hey new guy... I strongly suggest you hang out a bit before trying to be the life of the party.

RCMAC said:

Sure bout that?
Footers are placed for structures and bridges directly over water all the time.

Yes, I'm absolutely positive. Show me one picture of a structural footer placed on top of water.

Dutchman said:

Oh you definitely can pour footers for skyscrapers in this type of soil.

Yes, that’s right. In your other post, I thought you were trying to say that CP is not able to dig without hitting water—not whether or not it’s possible. I’ll actually be graduating this spring with a degree in building/bridge/highway engineering, so I know exactly what your talking about. In some cases, you can even build buildings that jut out into bodies of water by driving piles into whatever land is available and use the upward force of the soil to stabilize it. The Burj Al Arab in Dubai is a perfect example. For those foundations, you actually have to dig deeper than bedrock foundations.

This must be Challenge the Mac Day.
What I meant was the footers for those structures and bridges are placed into, meaning through, water. Not on top of water.
Those structures and bridges span bodies of water supported by piers and footers that somehow make their way into and through the water.

Maybe that applies here, maybe it doesn't.

And it certainly seems like you're the educated expert in these matters, so I defer.

Amazingly, I was able to glean all that from your "directly over water" post with no problem -- and without !'s civil engineering degree.

I'm sure people remember that there's a giant footer under the midway stretching to Witch's Wheel under a 425' structure that carries a dynamic load, right? On the same sandy peninsula?

Do you guys remember the floorless coaster and SLC at Geauga Lake? They drove pilings into the lake and poured a massive concrete block on top of each cluster. It's a time-honored technique...that's also how they built St. Isaac's cathedral in Петроград* (it was still Ленинград** when I visited in 1987, but the cathedral predates Ленин, so...). The structure is sitting on tree trunks that were driven into the muck, and it hasn't shifted in almost 200 years...and the dome is 333 feet tall.

For most of the much less massive structures at Cedar Point, when possible they seem to favor spread foundations. Most of the footings for Magnum and Mean Streak, for instance, are only between two and six feet deep. Wicked Twister is another example: the towers are 200' tall, but the footings are not especially deep. If I remember right, Power Tower's foundation is only about 12', and it's not solid...it's built like a building under there. I believe there is also a basement under the Luminosity stage, but I don't know how far below grade it goes.

The lowest point on the Voyage is the tunnel where the train goes past the station by diving under the entrance and exit ramps, past the windows alongside the lower holding area of that horrible queue house. Originally, the top of that tunnel was a steel grate over a clear plastic roofing material. You really couldn't see through it very well, and it became filthy very quickly, and last season they plank decking over it and very few people actually noticed. The lesson here is that see-through walk-over tunnels are a cool idea that don't work well in real life.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

*Петроград: "Petrograd" or "St. Petersburg"
**Ленинград: "Leningrad"

--DCAjr.

It seems these days that wooden coasters (take Renegade as an example) are built on large slabs of concrete, much like a baby pool. Can it be in those cases (and I'm sure the engineers in the crowd will be willing to clear this up for me) that it's possible and easier to attach supports to that concrete without having to dig deep footers? Am I correct in assuming that with this technique the load would be distributed evenly along the baby pool and the bents, attached to each other with stringers, are supported enough to prevent a lot of stress on the structure? Would this be an easier and cost efficient way of doing things in places like Minnesota where off season digging may not be so easy?

! said:
I’ll actually be graduating this spring with a degree in building/bridge/highway engineering, so I know exactly what your talking about.

Will this degree include knowing how to properly use contractions?

No, it doesn't. They only teach that in the Corrective PointBuzzing major. Thank you for pointing out that "your" should be "you're". Now we can all sleep tonight. ;)

RCMAC said:

This must be Challenge the Mac Day.

I didn't mean to come across that way (if you're talking about me), and I apologize if I did. I was trying to point out that CP has already dug foundations in the past (Windseeker, Space Spiral, etc.), and that building foundations in "unstable" ground conditions are possible, but may not be necessary for CP.

No, you're fine, thank you. I was feeling picked on anyway.
I made the same observation in regard to Space Spiral and Windseeker earlier in the day, so it sounds like we're on the same page.

There is already water in concrete so you can't mess it up by putting it under the water table. You auger out your hole. And right before you poor the concrete you sump pump the water out of the hole. If you don't pump the water out of the hole it comes out of the hole on the top. Concrete is heavier than water. It's a mess if you leave the water in the hole. I wanna think that the companies involved know what their doing. Probably not their first pour. There have been many times they emptied the lagoons to build. And lot's of concrete in the lagoons around Rougaroo, Iron Dragon, Maverick, Mine Ride, and probably Millenium Force. Thunder Canyon and Shoot the Rapids involve lots of concrete.

As for going underground they could do it if they wanted to. Just gonna have pumps running to keep that water out. I can't imagine them going all out on the themeing however.

Is it even possible to have a glass floor that wouldn't crap up very soon?

There are skyscrapers that have a portion jut out and have a glass floor, so that you are looking straight down about 1,000 feet. Thing is, they don't have nearly the foot traffic that a glass floor at CP would have.

I'll be pretty stunned if there aren't multiple footers poured on the land near the Good Time Theater before the start of the 2015 season. Dragster and Maverick both had that done in the season prior to their debut. GateKeeper was a bit of a different case since it was mostly on land that was being overhauled just prior to construction.

It's a great way for them to get ahead on construction and to let the footers (especially the signficant ones) get nice and solid before any vertical construction.

coasterblu said:

Is it even possible to have a glass floor that wouldn't crap up very soon?

It certainly is. The Willis (formerly Sears) Tower in Chicago is a great example, as mentioned above, of a skyscraper that had observation platforms jutting out over the edges. I don't know if you saw this, but a year or so ago their was a video of a girl who "nearly died" when the glass underneath her cracked in the Willis Tower.

The reality is that there were many layers of glass underneath her, the first layer cracked, which while scary, posed no danger. What they do is on the top layer use a relatively inexpensive layer of glass, since they know it will be scuffed and scratched that it will need to be replaced. While it looks like a single layer to us, it is actually many, each with stronger abilities.

I doubt that CP would want to deal with the expense of such a bridge, given the foot traffic, since that would need constant replacement. But they are putting in a new club with a glass dance floor here in Cleveland in the Flats, so if someone in Cleveland can afford THAT, I'm sure CP could. If they found it to be worthwhile.

RCMAC said:

It seems these days that wooden coasters (take Renegade as an example) are built on large slabs of concrete, much like a baby pool.

Since this seems to be sensitivity day, I'll clarify by saying, "I'm not picking on anyone here." :-)

Renegade is built that way, because it was built by GCII. That's how GCII builds (i believe) all of their coasters. It wouldn't surprise me if there are other companies who have as well. But, I don't think anyone does it as a rule like GCII.