announcement date 8/18/15

djDaemon said:

Maybe the expected balance has shifted from the one I experienced as a kid. Maybe families today don't want things like African Safari, Paddlewheel Excursions, Pirate Ride, Kid Aurthur's Court, Sky Slide, and so on. But if Ouimet is trying to get me and others of my generation to bring our offspring there to recreate that magic, he's certainly not going about it in convincing fashion.

Seems like a well-rounded "Amazement Park" experience is a thing of the past. The park is becoming more and more one dimensional.

I don't think that's completely true.

Last year, the park renovated the Gemini midway to make it more family-friendly... not to mention the addition of 2 new family rides.

Yes, there is work to be done, but if you add family stuff EVERY year, it's going to alienate the thrill-seeking fan-base.

Two new family-friendly rides (one of which carries a rider height requirement of 42") does not compensate for the loss of so many other family-friendly attractions over the years.

I'd like a dark ride as much as everyone else and they've said several times that it will happen. But for now, they feel that the dive coaster is the better addition for 2016.

TTD6262 said:

Well then I guess he has a "massive ego" (No idea how being interested in a new type of coaster means massive ego in your mind, but whatever) because he's said several times that they went to that convention and B&M had their Wing Coaster model out as one of the displays and they were instantly interested. I know for a fact that they've said it wasn't in the 5 year plan.

Also, the whole "5 year plan being only for budget" idea doesn't really have any factual basis as far as I know. Is that just your opinion of how they do things, or have they actually said that in interviews? You're trying to say that I said the $30 Million wasn't part of the 5 year plan, but that is a worthless strawman argument, unless of course you can kindly quote where I said that they weren't planning on spending that much. I said it was a "spur of the moment buy" in that they had no intentions of putting a wing coaster in until they saw it at that convention, whereas it is completely a possibility that they've been looking at their coaster lineup and saw that a dive coaster would fit for much longer than when they started looking at where to put it and what rides to take out.

It wasn't "spur of the moment".

Cedar Fair had on its rolling five-year plan since 2007/2008 that they would put in a major attraction (coaster) for the 2013 season.

In November 2011, approximately 18 months before the opening of GateKeeper, Cedar Fair was in discussions with manufacturers, likely more than just B&M.

At IAAPA that month, Rob Decker met with Walter Bolliger (and/or Claude Mabillard) to discuss ideas for this new coaster.

The takeaway from those discussions was that Cedar Fair was really interested in a wing coaster. They may have been interested in the concept beforehand but were sold on it there. Or, they had nothing specific in mind. Regardless, the entire process from concept to commissioning takes 12-24 months. That's the figure that's been commonly quoted. That means that for 3-4 years, they have a rough idea of what they want, but the concrete plans (pun intended) really come together in the last year or two.

Preliminary lans were drawn up. Purchase contracts were drawn up. Legal was brought in. Any execs or board members needing to provide input were brought in.

Everyone agreed that this was a worthwhile investment and the project was approved.

That's how all major purchases work in any company, especially one that is publicly traded.

By saying that it was a "spur of the moment" purchase, you imply that Cedar Fair sent representatives to IAAPA 2011 with no years-planned intention to commission the building of a coaster, and then said representatives whipped out a pen and signed a purchase agreement (contract) right then and there. I'm saying that's not how things work. There are procedures to follow.

What they did say was that GateKeeper as it panned out wasn't what they initially had in mind. They knew years in advance that a major attraction (coaster) would be put in somewhere in the park. They hadn't yet talked to manufacturers to get the ball rolling on a finalized plan. When Matt Ouimet came in, shortly before they began gathering ideas and soliciting bids, he has been said to have provided some input that changed the direction of this project. They were still planning on putting in a coaster in advance, and had some ideas of what they wanted to incorporate and where it would go. Things like moving it over to the beach and wrapping around a new front gate.. Those we can attribute to Matt Ouimet. Where the roughly-planned coaster from the Kinzel era would've gone, that I don't know.

That's how five-year plans work; my previous employment in IT/purchasing only confirms this. You don't plan every detail of every purchase five years out; you have some idea of what you want and how much it will cost, then try to refine it as it moves up to the four, three, two year marks.

glions33 said:

*Snape* kills *Dumbledore*... Sorry I just felt that needed to be said.

That's what I get for not proofreading...

djDaemon said:

JUnderhill said:

Not at all, but I do view them as much better at running an amusement park than we are.

Well, sure. But I do see indications that they're talking out of both sides of their mouth.

Consider opening day/weekend/month this season. The park was wholly unprepared to be open, to say nothing of being prepared to provide guests with the "best day" experience Ouimet loves to talk about.

And over the last 30 years, they've removed an awful lot of family-friendly attractions, and the installation of suitable replacements hasn't come close to maintaining the balance. Ouimet also loves to talk about sharing the experience through generations. That is, the experience that many of us had as kids can be shared with our kids, and so on. At this pace, I won't even be bringing my daughter to CP regularly until she's old enough to ride the coasters. And at that point, she'll likely have little interest in my being there.

Maybe the expected balance has shifted from the one I experienced as a kid. Maybe families today don't want things like African Safari, Paddlewheel Excursions, Pirate Ride, Kid Aurthur's Court, Sky Slide, and so on. But if Ouimet is trying to get me and others of my generation to bring our offspring there to recreate that magic, he's certainly not going about it in convincing fashion.

I could have sworn you lectured me on "entitlement" on this very argument I made a couple years back. Anyway, nobody understands until they have a kid. You're in the no-man's land where we were a few years back. Take your child to Idlewild, she will love it, very relaxing, shaded, and very family friendly rides. I'm very curious to see what they will bring back from Europe as far as reinstalling some "nostalgic" rides. I have always felt they short-changed the nostalgic element with amusement parks. I think you had lectured me on that argument as well.

When I was a kid, I Ioved CP better than KI because they had more variety with the general attraction rides (I will agree Enchanted Voyage was just beautiful, rivaling a Disney installation). It hasn't been that way for years with all the removals or at least precious little. I really enjoyed the change of pace between the coaster rides with those dark rides and the boat ride that is missed to this day. Shows don't fill that hole for me, although I appreciate their efforts on delivering great ones today.

Darkrider68,

That is the point, she isn't planning on coming to CP, but the Gold passes have ALL the benefits of a platinum except for park hopping, she does have access to their Soak City as would a CP gold pass would be if it ever came to fruition. We don't need to go to KI every year. It would be for casual use for just the local park and its waterpark.

ETA: Casual use meaning once a month, which is what it's been this summer, we really haven't been going like we were the last couple or so years. It's nice to have in case, but not for the kind of dough platinum commands, based on our attendance and other things we'd like to do or other obligations.

A friend of mine at work asked me if CP had any plans for next year and I said, "You might want to sit down for this"

I think the plan for Cedar Point is revolving around the build-up to 2020 when they will celebrate 150 years. In terms of major investment it makes sense they will do it in 2016 and leaving 17, 18, 19 for medium and small investments and have the next major investment be in 2020. This is all in my opinion but from a business perspective its what I would do.

I'll just be as brief as possible.

If Valravn is a dive coaster and is all that is coming, I totally get the "oh no not another coaster we need family rides" shouting. I'm a dad of two girls, one of whom is just now at 48 inches, and the other who is a brave 3-year old who conquered every coaster at Disney this past March. I've been extremely vocal about what I think Cedar Point needs, and these sentiments seem to have been echoed by Ouimet and McClure; meaning rides and experiences the family can do together.

So...last year we took one step forward in that direction with the Gemini Midway overhaul. The Breakers redo is also a huge plus. Call me Shirley, but I have totally convinced myself that in the next two seasons (assuming Valravn is the dive coaster and that is all the park is adding) we will see quality family-oriented attractions.

It takes years for a park to evolve; not just a few seasons. I would say that a fair examination of Ouimet and McClure's impact on the park would take at least 6 - 7 seasons to truly come into view. That's a long time, no doubt, but with the incremental steps that need to take place, I think that's fair.

Now, not to change gears or anything, but is anyone else taking this unofficial video of Valravn with a grain of salt like I am? Might it be it? I suppose. And I get that it's for a phone app (supposedly), but I'm not 100% convinced this is it. Would I be disappointed? No. I'm just not convinced.

^ Hi, Shirley. :D

I guess we will have to wait until 2020 for Stratosoar, the 400 foot flying coaster ;)

I totally agree with Kevin. We know for a fact that a dark ride is coming sometime soon, and there are still several years to go with the original 5 year plan of Ouimet. He was hired in 2012, meaning I will wait until the 2017 season before complaining that all he cares about is big coasters and that it is becoming one dimensional. If at that point the only new family ride we've gotten is a dark ride, then sure, complain all you want. But until then, he hasn't even been given enough time to fulfill his original plan. Believe me, I too think Cedar Point needs a small-medium sized coaster with a short height limit as they've knocked down two with no replacements, but I am not willing to say that he is overloading on coasters yet.

Let's not forget Ouimet spent 17 years at Disney, he definitely has a plan.

I have been reading this site for 10 years now. Some things never change. One of those things is the fact that people will complain about every new development, does not matter what it is, they will complain. I can remember people complaining when Maverick was announced. They said the layout was disappointing. As with most complaints they were wrong. I have never ridden a Dive coaster (if that is indeed what is being announced) and I have heard nothing but good things. I'm just happy my park actually gets new rides.

I don't think CP can satisfy everyone every year. Some years they add new thrill riles/roller coasters that appeal to older, adrenaline junkies like myself. Some years they add family friendly rides that appeal to families and younger kids. This year they've taken the adrenaline junkie/older audience approach. I'm sure they next few years will be back to the family oriented additions. Does that mean I'm going to complain because I'm not getting something I exactly care for? No... But unfortunately CP cannot add something to appeal to each age group every year.

Let's not forget that CP has 54 rides that are NOT coasters at the park. Compared to just 16 coasters. So I think everyone saying CP ONLY does coasters is a bit of an exaggration. :)

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 3 years (2017-2019) we see the dark ride and more projects like the Gemini Midway. I would love an amazing family style coaster like Firechaser at Dollywood or the new Seven Dwarfs ride at Disney. Who knows we may get that very shortly, I have a lot of faith in a man from Disney to know how to build this park.

The amusement industry is a damned if you do damned if you dont industry. Point has built a rep for having the biggest and baddest coaster collection and they need to keep up with that. They also have a huge demographic of families they need to cater too. I think if we all just sit back and watch this new leadership group work out their plans we will all be pleasently surprised and happy.

Can't wait to see where this park is in 10 years (and to hear all the bitching then).

As has been said rather often, enthusiasts (and forum posters) on any topic tend to be the biggest critics.

They also tend to have some of the largest hopes and dreams for what that topic will become.

The bottom of this page identifies PointBuzz as the "Home of the biggest fans of the world's best amusement park". The biggest fans will have some of the biggest and sometimes craziest ideas for what the park will put in and what the park will come in.

This is nothing new, and not really surprising.

It's also the Internet, where people say things they likely wouldn't say in person.

Bottom line, though, what really matters is how the masses feel about the park's development, whether or not guests are coming through the turnstiles, riding the rides and buying merch, food, services.

Personally, I would love to see a B&M flyer (preferably LSM-launched à la Thunderbird) with a terrain aspect. Not just like Maverick where the ground itself is relatively flat but the coaster is hugging that ground anyway. Nope, I'd love to see some cliffs, some hills built into the earth beneath more like Tatsu at Six Flags Magic Mountain.

Does that mean they have to put in what I'd like to see, or what any of us like to see? Nope. Does that mean we're not allowed to voice our opinions? Nope.

I'm personally disappointed in Rougarou because I still have a lot of head banging with those OTSRs, as I feared upon first seeing the trains, and which was my main issue with Mantis. I'm also disappointed disappointed with the modified restraints on Maverick; they don't fix the leg stapling that was my main issue with it. I also felt myself falling into the straps and that hurt.

And that's okay. We're all just sharing our opinions, for the most part. The biggest fans tend to have the biggest opinions, and that's okay.

topthrilldragster4lyf said:

I'd love to see some cliffs, some hills built into the earth beneath more like Tatsu at Six Flags Magic Mountain.

Magic Mountain is called what it is for a reason, because there's a "mountain" (More like large hill but whatever) where the park is built. They didn't build any cliffs or hills, they just put the coaster there.

And I didn't say what I would like to see was feasible. Just that I'd have a blast on that ride. :)

If you compare the layouts of Valravn, Griffon, and Sheikra, Valravn's has the most to offer and is just massive in comparison. There are still stats, harness type, theming and entrance location that remain a mystery. We have much to look foward to for the announement.